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Utopia Talk / Politics / Ukraine guilty of chemical warfare
Paramount
Member
Thu Aug 11 10:35:05
The Ukrainian military has shelled an industrial facility in Donetsk, there is an ammonia leak & authorities are telling locals to close windows + stay inside. The area marked on the map is in danger of contamination.

http://twi...?s=21&t=-OOTY-98haGlhaiwo2-ckQ
swordtail
Anarchist Prime
Thu Aug 11 10:56:56
not the first time that nato's nazis have targeted chemical,industrial,nuclear facilities hoping for mass civilian deaths.

they've been shelling a nuclear plant these last few days,cause of all the winning they've been doin.
Paramount
Member
Fri Aug 12 03:38:38
Dude, don't you read the news? The nuclear plant is occupied by the Russians and the Russians are attacking themselves.
Seb
Member
Fri Aug 12 09:55:36
There's footage from the nuclear plant of the Russian forces withdrawing, sound of mortar launches, and detonations shortly after wards.

Highly likely the Russians shelled the nuclear plant and tend to believe the same likely of the chemical plants
Paramount
Member
Fri Aug 12 10:08:58
The nuclear plant is apparently being attacked with Western-made guided missiles.

If it isn’t Ukraine doing it, then maybe it is British and American mercenaries?
Seb
Member
Fri Aug 12 10:18:05
Says who?

The video reports is pretty clear it's mortars fired from the direction of Russian forces, who withdrew in advance of the attack.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Fri Aug 12 10:35:12
Well we can forget about building any more nuclear reactors. Greens are gaining in the polls. I have made my peace with the inevitable collapse of civilization. Stocking firewood for the winter and dry foods.
Paramount
Member
Fri Aug 12 10:37:58
” There's footage from the nuclear plant of the Russian forces withdrawing, sound of mortar launches, and detonations shortly after wards.”


According to Ukraine, the Russians has heavy artillery/weaponry at the nuclear plant and has fired at Ukrainan positions from there. Ukraine was complaining that they could not fire back.


” Highly likely the Russians shelled the nuclear plant and tend to believe the same likely of the chemical plants”

More likely, Ukraine or British and American mercenaries used Western guided missiles to try to take out the Russian heavy weaponry.
jergul
large member
Fri Aug 12 10:44:54
Why in God's name would Russians set up arty positions that Ukrainian nuclear technicians could take snapshots of on their phones?

More than likely, rogue elements in the Ukranian armed forces are taking artillery potshots at the plant in order to escalate the conflict and somehow magically bring in Nato airpower on their side.

The Ukrainian authorities are doing damage control and blaming Russia.
Paramount
Member
Fri Aug 12 10:50:21
What is a potshot?
jergul
large member
Fri Aug 12 10:54:17
"a shot that is fired carelessly or with little preparation:
He was taking potshots at neighbourhood cats"

===========

Russia most absolutely has troops guarding the facility, but the location is not militarily significant besides being a NPP.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Fri Aug 12 11:32:03
Potshots is the cousin of "shooting from the hips".
swordtail
Anarchist Prime
Fri Aug 12 11:38:03
"rogue elements"

lol
Pillz
Member
Fri Aug 12 12:56:46
Lol @ seb
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Fri Aug 12 13:56:11
Paramount, I have room for you, once Stockholm descends into madness and there are no longer gender neutral snow plowing and the feminists roam the streets like packs of wolves. You have to work for it, since the SEK will be worthless.
Seb
Member
Fri Aug 12 15:50:46
Jergul:

"More than likely, rogue elements in the Ukranian armed forces are taking artillery potshots at the plant in order to escalate the conflict and somehow magically bring in Nato airpower on their side."


Unlikely given video evidence seen by journalists.
jergul
large member
Fri Aug 12 16:53:50
Or more than likely given the video evidence seen by journalists.

Since we are just making up shit.
Hrothgar
Member
Sat Aug 13 03:04:47
None of this bullshit in Ukraine or Russia would be happening if Russia stayed home, including the events of 2014. That's all that needs to be understood about it really. The rest is all semantics, guesswork, and blind allegiance.

The fault for violent warfare always lays on the side of the initial invader. America's folly in Iraq and post Bin Laden death should have taught you all that in the last 21 years. None of the violence and wasteful BS of the American wars would have happened if we stayed home with direction from better/smarter leadership.

The same logic applies to Russia now. All Russia has to do is go back to their borders and all the destruction and death will stop, including the blame game shelling around the nuclear facility.
murder
Member
Sat Aug 13 07:51:11

"Or more than likely given the video evidence seen by journalists."

I think more likely given the video evidence seen by journalists is that the Russian army is on the wrong side of their border and its safe to not give them the benefit of the doubt regarding anything just based on that one known fact.

Also fuck Russia!

murder
Member
Sat Aug 13 07:52:25

"None of this bullshit in Ukraine or Russia would be happening if Russia stayed home, including the events of 2014."

100%


"All Russia has to do is go back to their borders and all the destruction and death will stop, including the blame game shelling around the nuclear facility."

200%

jergul
large member
Sat Aug 13 08:57:36
"None of this bullshit in Ukraine or Russia would be happening if Russia stayed home, including the events of 2014."

"All Russia has to do is go back to their borders and all the destruction and death will stop, including the blame game shelling around the nuclear facility."

Indeed.

But that is not really the world we live in, is it?
jergul
large member
Sat Aug 13 09:00:55
The template for ending nuclear power interventions is always for the nuclear power to get bored.

swordtail
Anarchist Prime
Sat Aug 13 09:04:11
that was in the days of handing out cookies in kiev.
it's a new ball game now.
stock up on plastic sheeting and duct tape as well as iodine,cause nato's nazis are shelling the nuke plant again.
jergul
large member
Sat Aug 13 09:11:22
It seems pretty obvious now that the NPP should be mothballed to limit the extent of radiation spillout. A 5-mile island event potential, not a Chernobyl.

The NPP is the largest in Europe and is linked to the European power system after Ukraine became integrated last year.

So, yah, the replacement power for that is Russian natural gas in European gas powered plants...

Seb
Member
Sun Aug 14 01:45:12
Safest thing would be to tell Russian and Ukrainian forces that attacks on nuclear powerplants or attacks from their vicinity will trigger a limited punitive response against forces involved.
jergul
large member
Sun Aug 14 02:06:12
Getting into an armed conflict with Russia is "the safest thing"?

Shut it down and find some other way of generating 6 GWe to supply Europe's electricity needs this coming winter.
jergul
large member
Sun Aug 14 02:07:24
Suggestions like that is why the NPP is being attacked in the first place.

1. Hit nuclear power plant
2. Get nato to commit to using force
3. ...
4. Success!
Seb
Member
Sun Aug 14 03:28:37
Jergul:


Your repeated claims that the Ukrainians are staging a false flag operation - presented entirely without evidence and sourced only from Russian govt claims - are a bit pathetic really.

The video of Russian mortaring into the plant to try and take out the grid connectors - something you earlier suggested.

NATO has surveillance all over Ukraine, it isn't going to get suckered into such an attack.

And no, we should not deliver Russia's military objectives for it by default.

Here's a non pay walled version of the story and videos. Fuck the mail.

http://www...pes-largest-nuclear-plant.html
Seb
Member
Sun Aug 14 03:34:47
Russia is in no position to get into an armed war with NATO and will likely reduce its attack on nuclear plants accordingly.

Nor is it likely to respond to a punitive strike by escalating into a broader war.

As you alude to, the target of this attack is Europe. Now Ukraine is on the grid, taking the plant down will not have significant impact on Ukraine, but is instead intended to try and put greater pressure on the European economy going into winter.

We should defend our legitimate interests as vigorously as Russia is defending its illegitimate ones.

Bending over backwards to accommodate Russia for the last twenty years has got is precisely nowhere. It's time to be more robust in defending and deterring. And contrary to your hyperventilation, shooting down a few planes and bombing a few troops without a broader and protracted campaign isn't going to start ww3. Cf. Turkey/Syria.

jergul
large member
Sun Aug 14 04:38:07
Seb
Nato not figuring out who is firing missiles and mortars should be a pretty clear indication that it is both the Ukrainians and Nato would be suckered into such a conflict.

Russia can just reroute the power. It has no need to destroy the grid kinetically. And if it wanted to fake ops it, then it could do a controlled demolition and say it was Ukr arty.

You think the West's response to the invasion is not robust?

But sure, get into a shooting war with Russia. Why not reward bad behaviour from rogue elements in the Ukrainian armed forces.

Re your link. Mortars do not have a direct fire mode. 81 mm has a 21 second flight time with a single propellant ring.
jergul
large member
Sun Aug 14 04:40:47
That did not sound like a mortar being fired either.
murder
Member
Sun Aug 14 06:55:38

"Safest thing would be to tell Russian and Ukrainian forces that attacks on nuclear powerplants or attacks from their vicinity will trigger a limited punitive response against forces involved."

The "safest" thing would be to cut off Russian forces from resupply.

Pillz
Member
Sun Aug 14 07:27:48

"The "safest" thing would be to cut off Russian forces from resupply."

A shame you're incapable of that I guess, isn't it.

Seb retarded as ever.

In other news, Russian MoD official tally of UAF material losses:

"In total, 267 Ukrainian airplanes and 148 helicopters, 1,738 unmanned aerial vehicles, 365 anti-aircraft missile systems, 4,303 tanks and other armored combat vehicles, 798 multiple launch rocket systems, 3,298 field artillery and mortars, as well as 4,888 units of special military vehicles were destroyed during the operation."


Paramount
Member
Sun Aug 14 07:35:45
Ukraine will target Russian forces at Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant, says Zelenskiy

http://twi...?s=21&t=-KVHTX68s0qqB5NTaWeXZQ
murder
Member
Sun Aug 14 07:43:41

"A shame you're incapable of that I guess, isn't it."

It must suck to be a fanboy of a country that can't win a war on its own border.

murder
Member
Sun Aug 14 07:49:54

"Ukraine will target Russian forces at Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant, says Zelenskiy"

As well they should. That's what precision guided munitions are for.



Paramount
Member
Sun Aug 14 08:06:14
So it is okay to bomb the area?
murder
Member
Sun Aug 14 08:19:06

Sure.

pillz
Member
Sun Aug 14 08:22:04
"It must suck to be a fanboy of a country that can't win a war on its own border."

Imagine not being able to defeat shitty Russia after having 8 years to prepare the largest army in Europe

But then again, you also trained the Iraqi army
murder
Member
Sun Aug 14 08:41:03

Russia is being defeated.

Pillz
Member
Sun Aug 14 09:47:03
Sure thing.

200 men of the 56th mechanized refused orders, abanonded their positions

The sort of actions we'd expect from the winning side
jergul
large member
Sun Aug 14 13:10:54
Murder
You better tell Russia that. It is not even close to doing the things it would do if it thought it was being defeated.
murder
Member
Sun Aug 14 16:00:27

It doesn't matter what they think or what they pretend to think.

Pillz
Member
Sun Aug 14 16:40:06
The Ukrainian army is being ground down, and European and American material aid to Ukraine is at a record low.
Pillz
Member
Sun Aug 14 16:40:07
The Ukrainian army is being ground down, and European and American material aid to Ukraine is at a record low.
Paramount
Member
Sun Aug 14 17:58:33
I heard that only about 30% of the weapons reached the Ukrainans. Some Swedish weapons apparently ended up with the Kurds, which is one reason why Turkiye objects to Sweden joining Nato. Turkiye thinks that Sweden is arming the Kurds, but those weapons were meant for Ukraine. Anyhow, so Sweden shipped weapons that are now in the hands of Kurdish groups who may use them against Nato member Turkiye.
Sam Adams
Member
Sun Aug 14 23:04:45
"The Ukrainian army is being ground down, and European and American material aid to Ukraine is at a record low."

So ground down the russians should be advancing right?

Right?
jergul
large member
Mon Aug 15 00:13:25
Sammy
Why would you move a grinder?

Like I have said many times, Russia could have cut off everything East of the Dniepr by blowing up bridges.

Problem with that is Ukr would be forced to build up its military in the West.

This is almost all about grinding down Ukrainian forces. Advances are tactical to create cauldrons (kessel) Ukraine is forced the shuttle troops into.

Like the new one at Siversk.
jergul
large member
Mon Aug 15 00:22:08
Like I said above. Russia is treating this as a thawed frozen conflict and has geared efforts to what it can sustain forever.

Its military budget increase is 10 billion dollars. This conflict is between 10 and 100 times more expensive for the West and Ukraine to wage. Depending on what factors you feel like including as costs of conflict.

Pillz
Member
Mon Aug 15 01:16:47
Kherson, Kharkov, Donetsk, Siversk, solendar, Bakhmut... There are multiple grinders going on.

Meanwhile a dozen vehicle and ammo depots, command centers and barracks are destroyed by missile strikes daily.
Sam Adams
Member
Mon Aug 15 09:16:49
Lol. Soviet propaganda monkies are hilarious.
Sam Adams
Member
Mon Aug 15 10:03:14
"The reason we arnt advancing is because we are actually just trying to kill troops"

Lol.
swordtail
Anarchist Prime
Mon Aug 15 11:12:33
nato's nazis are shelling the nuke plant again.
seems they ain't tired of all that winning yet.
murder
Member
Mon Aug 15 11:13:37

You kill Russians where they're at.

jergul
large member
Mon Aug 15 11:15:19
That is exactly what is going on Sammy. Russia wants to minimize casualties, so is doing recon to find and fix Ukrainians, and arty to grind them down.

Sam Adams
Member
Mon Aug 15 12:56:31
Russia wanted a quick blitzkreig with mechanized forces, like germany in france or the US in iraq.

This failed, bad.

They then wanted to "create cauldrons", based on their one semi-succesful military campaign ever. You will note the fascination of eastern europeans with encirclement, based on the one thing that ever worked for then.

This failed completely.

They then went back to ww1 style trench advances under artillery cover.

This got them some minor gains a few months ago but now the front is pretty much stationary.

So now the russian trolls are like "we arent advancing because we dont want to advance".

Lulz.
jergul
large member
Mon Aug 15 13:24:19
Sammy
1. They wanted a coup de main that would force Ukraine to settle on Russian terms.

2. The mass encirclement was a grand success. The cream of the Ukrainian military died or surrendered at Mariopol.

3. Otherwise, tactical recon, sometimes in force, to find and lock Ukrainian defenders, then grind them down in cauldrons created (bulges since you seem unsure of what they are).

Adapt-react.

Russia is setting the stage for a perpetual thawed frozen conflict. If it wanted to advance, then it would need to start taking the conflict seriously and bring way more forces to bear.

Ukraine currently outnumbers Russia 3:1 in manpower in Ukraine.
Sam Adams
Member
Mon Aug 15 14:56:28
"The mass encirclement was a grand success. The cream of the Ukrainian military died or surrendered at Mariopol."

Lol.
jergul
large member
Mon Aug 15 15:12:32
Ukraine built tall, not wide. Losing their elite units (two brigades) hurt. A lot.

Though I am sure former McDonald shift managers replacements are adapting well to their lives as army officers too.
Sam Adams
Member
Mon Aug 15 15:21:57
Yes jergul. All skilled ukrainian soldiers were in mariopol. None were in the capital.


Lol the minds of russians.
jergul
large member
Mon Aug 15 15:52:42
Sammy
Blame Nato training Ukraine to fight low intensity wars with elite units (best trained, most combat experience by far best equipped). Losing two of those brigades was devastating.

Why did you think you have to so heavily support the 2nd largest military in Europe.

It built tall, so most of its forces are sort of crap and some of them were exceptionally good.

Ukraine lost the cream of its military in Mariupol. End of story.
Sam Adams
Member
Mon Aug 15 17:41:37
Ok, then why was russia unable to advance much after mariopol?

Lol. Russian logic?
murder
Member
Mon Aug 15 18:51:03

"Ok, then why was russia unable to advance much after mariopol?"

The grapes were sour.

swordtail
Anarchist Prime
Mon Aug 15 19:22:32
The Borg Cube-Tatanka
@CByder

According to MI6, CIA, NSA, MSN , BIRDS , Romulans, Vulcans, Klingons, Deltans, Whale Singers,Xindi, Species 8472 and The Q . RU army is out of ammo here u can see Ru catapults Mangonels in action

http://twi...63040?cxt=HHwWgMC8pei_vqMrAAAA
jergul
large member
Mon Aug 15 23:56:37
Sammy
Already asked and answered.

You are watching a thawed frozen conflict. Intensity at a level Russia can sustain forever.
murder
Member
Tue Aug 16 05:31:19

It seems that Russians have been smoking again.


================================
Anton Gerashchenko @Gerashchenko_en

Crimea, Dzhankoy

Explosions at the ammunition depot - media in the occupied Crimea

http://twi..._en/status/1559425122825654272

swordtail
Anarchist Prime
Tue Aug 16 05:51:11
Crimea blast was act of sabotage – Defense Ministry

Civilian infrastructure was damaged following explosions at an ammo depot, the military has said

The explosions caused damage “to a number of civilian objects, including power lines, a power station, a railroad and several residential houses,” the statement said.

http://www...ea-incident-sabotage-military/
jergul
large member
Tue Aug 16 05:52:51
Russia claims it was sabotage. Turns out that with enough planning, people can do the same thing an iskander missile can, though not at the same volume of course.

I am not sure Ukraine's media black out of strikes against ukrainian military targets serves its long term interests.

Why is all this winning not manifesting in any victories? There is a serious cognitive dissconnect between what you belief and what is happening murder.

I only hope the Ukrainians do not end up disappointing you too much.

murder
Member
Tue Aug 16 06:31:40

I only hope the Russians don't end up disappointing you ... more.

jergul
large member
Tue Aug 16 06:35:01
No skin in the game. Russia has been the big, bad guy since 2014 in my opinion. Now it is just interesting watching it play out.

Russia will be under sanction forever. I am just curious to see how or if this thawed conflict will refreeze and to what extent Russia is able to pivot away from the golden billion.
Sam Adams
Member
Tue Aug 16 14:10:27
"Why is all this winning not manifesting in any victories?"

Resisting russian attack is victory enough. Ukraine is a brand new nation, disorganized and poor, with a GDP one tenth of russias.

If russia was competent they would own the entire country already.
Pillz
Member
Tue Aug 16 14:24:59
It costs less to dismantle them this way
Sam Adams
Member
Tue Aug 16 14:48:29
It costs less money to lose a couple armored divisions and not advance much?

Lol russians
murder
Member
Tue Aug 16 18:24:56

Think of the money they are saving on maintenance.


Sam Adams
Member
Tue Aug 16 19:00:35
Lol good point. And retirement benefits.
jergul
large member
Wed Aug 17 01:06:36
Sammy
Ukraine is a brand new nation the same way Russia is a brand new nation.

If resistance is victory enough, then both Ukraine and Russia win by perpetual conflict.

Paramount
Member
Thu Aug 18 14:31:49
So I heard that Russia has said that they will shut down the nuclear plant if Ukraine continues to insist to shell it.
Paramount
Member
Thu Aug 18 15:14:54
Maybe that is old news already.
Pillz
Member
Thu Aug 18 15:15:12
Why isn't the UN or US or EU condemning the Ukraine's bombing of the plant?
Paramount
Member
Thu Aug 18 15:17:32
Because they think that the Russians are attacking themselves at the plant.
Sam Adams
Member
Thu Aug 18 15:28:28
Why isnt X listening to made up russian propaganda?

Lol
Sam Adams
Member
Thu Aug 18 16:14:49
Big night in the air. Ukrainians hit multiple targets inside russia and crimea. Irate russians are taking it out on civilian targets, since they cant do anything else. Pillz is wiping his butt and crying.
jergul
large member
Thu Aug 18 16:18:48
Do you have a link sammy?
swordtail
Anarchist Prime
Thu Aug 18 16:28:13
nato's nazis are shelling the nuke plant yet again.
Pillz
Member
Thu Aug 18 16:49:01
Sam fails to report the dozen nightly major strikes on Ukrainian military infrastructure, lol

Paramount
Member
Thu Aug 18 16:50:47
Europe’s largest nuclear plant is being shelled with Western weapons. So basically, the EU is attacking itself. There are like three plausible outcomes. 1) A nuclear meltdown and a power outage. 2) Russia shuts down the plant to prevent a nuclear meltdown but doing so will result in a power outage. 3) Ukraine stops shelling the plant.


1 is a defeat for everyone. 2 and 3 could be considered as a win for Russia.
Pillz
Member
Thu Aug 18 17:01:44
Lol @sam

No video of fires in Crimea at any bases. Multiple videos and reports of air defense downing drones

Videos posted by pro Ukrainians of fires at the base in Crimea are old footage from meltipol

Owned
Pillz
Member
Thu Aug 18 17:03:37
Telegram channels run by civilians in Sevastopol report no explosions in the ground

Governor of Sevastopol reports a drone downed near belbek airfield

Still no footage of explosions at the air field...
Paramount
Member
Thu Aug 18 17:10:55
”Irate russians are taking it out on civilian targets, since they cant do anything else”


”In most wars, the ratio of military to civilian deaths is roughly 1 to 1. And in this case the reported civilian deaths are about one-tenth of that. Which strongly suggests that the Russians have been holding back.” – Chas Freeman, in an interview on youtube
Pillz
Member
Thu Aug 18 17:14:18
And part of the Ukrainian line collapsed, around pesky, where the 200+ troops who abandoned position were.

Pesky is under Russian control and Russia is advancing in surrounding settlements. Pressure on avdiivka (where shelling on Donetsk is based) next door continues

Russian forces have reached the outskirts of Bakhmut on the south west of the city, just south of where fighting on the outskirts is already taking place.

And Russia has finally begun to initiate offensive operations north-wards along the eastern Bank of the siverksy-donets River west of Kharkov, having consolidated control of the west bank late in July.
Paramount
Member
Thu Aug 18 17:16:36
Btw, that statement was made prior to the Azovs in Mariupol either got killed or surrendered.
Sam Adams
Member
Thu Aug 18 20:28:44
"Sam fails to report the dozen nightly major strikes on Ukrainian military infrastructure, lol"

In pillz' head, hes defeated the entire ukrainian army 6 times already.
jergul
large member
Sat Aug 20 06:55:59
Annualized first quarter data suggests Russian nominal gdp will increase from 1.78 trillion USD in 2021 to 2.5 trillions USD in 2022.

This simple fact you will find nowhere. Internal inflation increases gdp for as long as the currency remains strong.

Some sanctions, particularly against oligarchs, seem to have been counter productive. Russia's balance of accounts have improved dramatically, partially because syphoning money out of the economy is no longer trivially easy.

How are US housing prices doing in Russian oligarch ghettos these days anyway?
Pillz
Member
Sat Aug 20 08:06:09
DNR says it expects a large strike to trigger a melt down at the Zaporizhzhia plant on the 24th

Stay tuned!
murder
Member
Sat Aug 20 08:11:59

If it does we should bomb a nuclear plant inside Russia.

jergul
large member
Sat Aug 20 08:44:53
Murder
Seriously, you believe Russia is targetting a NPP it controls?

Pillz
Member
Sat Aug 20 08:45:48
I should clarify this is DNR troops speaking about an impending attack by the UAF against the ZNPP
Pillz
Member
Sat Aug 20 08:46:25
In case murder is not as stupid and jergul is asking, and just misunderstood the statement.
murder
Member
Sat Aug 20 09:01:49

"Murder Seriously, you believe Russia is targetting a NPP it controls?"

You may even say that Russia is copying our 3 pillars of foreign policy.

1. We may be bad, but the alternative could be worse.

2. If we cannot have it, we will break it.

3. Now look what you made us do.

- jergul

murder
Member
Sat Aug 20 09:03:54

"Murder Seriously, you believe Russia is targetting a NPP it controls?"

Or to answer it another way. I know who benefits by the plant going offline.

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