Utopia Talk / Politics / Protests in Prague

Paramount Member	Sun Sep 04 03:40:59 Czech Republic: Thousands take part in Prague anti-government demonstration Around 70,000 people gathered in central Prague to protest against the Czech government's foreign and economic policies. Prime Minister Petr Fiala said the protesters did not have the country's best interests at heart. An estimated 70,000 protesters from the far-right and far-left rallied in central Prague against the Czech government on Saturday. Some of the groups represented at the demonstration were the populist anti-migrant Freedom and Direct Democracy Party and the Communist Party. Dubbed "Czech Republic First," the protest highlighted rising inflation fueled by a rise in energy prices, Covid-19 vaccinations, and immigrants. The protesters demanded the resignation of the current coalition government led by conservative Prime Minister Petr Fiala, which had taken office last December. Protesters slam government over Ukraine policy The organizers of the demonstration said the Czech Republic should be militarily neutral and ensure direct contracts with gas suppliers, including Russia. The protesters condemned the government for supporting sanctions against Russia over its war in Ukraine and accused it of being unable to cope with soaring energy prices. They said the government pays more attention to war-torn Ukraine than to its own citizens. "The best for the Ukrainians and two sweaters for us," read a banner, a reference to concerns about heating costs in winter. The Czech Republic, which currently holds the rotating EU presidency, has taken in around 400,000 refugees from Ukraine and has provided significant military and humanitarian aid to the war-torn country. Fiala warns of Russian propaganda The rally in Prague came a day after the government survived a no-confidence vote after the opposition claimed it would not crack down on inflation and energy prices. Petr Fiala, who leads the center-right five-party coalition, said the protesters did not have the country's best interests at heart. "The protest on Wenceslas Square was called by forces that are pro-Russian, are close to extreme positions and are against the interests of the Czech Republic," Fiala said. "It is clear that Russian propaganda and disinformation campaigns are present on our territory and some people simply listen to them." The Czech government plans to convene an emergency meeting of EU countries next week to find a common approach to tackling the energy crisis. http://www...nment-demonstration/a-63012178 I think we are going seeing more and more of this. People who may have legit concern about the cost of living and people who feel that they are being neglected by their own governments are being branded as a "threat to democracy", "pro-Russian", and that they have listened to "Russian propaganda". So... there is no inflation, there is no energy crisis, there are no covid-vaccines, and there are no immigrants. It all is Russian propaganda! :)
jergul large member	Sun Sep 04 09:13:59 Well, the West is caught in an appeasement loop with Ukraine. We just cannot say no to anything. The best we can do is procrastinate. Fair enough that Ukraine should be given support to defend itself, but we are trying to arm it so it can defeat Russia because that is what Ukraine is telling us what has to be done no matter the costs to our national self-interests. Objectively, our national self interests are served by perpetual conflict in Ukraine supported economically (including sanction costs to us) and militarity at levels we can easily sustain. That is not currently the case. Remember my prediction that Ukraine will cost the West doublt digit trillions in direct and indirect costs? I did not mean in 2022 alone.
Rugian Member	Sun Sep 04 09:20:41 jergul: *Claims to have a fanboy-level of obsession with the Westphalian notion that national borders are permanent and eternally inviolable* Also jergul: "Ukraine should accept territorial losses and/or cessation of sovereign rights over Crimea, Donbass, and Luhansk, and any Western attempts to forestall that result are part of an 'appeasement loop with Ukraine' I'm not seeing the consistency in your internal logic jergul.
Pillz Member	Sun Sep 04 09:38:07 Jergul said he opposed Russia's annexation of Crimea (confirm nhill?) and he's stated multiple times he opposes Russia's current invasion. But just because he wants national sovereignty to go unmolested, doesn't mean every wrong can be righted I guess. Ukraine has fought for 6 months to no effect, except of course political unrest in Europe, soaring energy prices in Europe (everywhere else too), another migrant crisis in Europe, and of course the exhaustion of smaller European arsenals. If the only conclusion that's acceptable to this war is Ukrainian victory and reinstatement of pre-2014 borders, then you might as well nuke Moscow now and start Armageddon because it's never gonna happen.
jergul large member	Sun Sep 04 09:57:49 Ruggy Ukraine's borders are permanent. But it will take decades to regain control and it will regain control through political and economic means, not militarily. Hence why I think Ukraine should be supported in a sustainable way. I incidentally never advocated that it was a global moral duty to expell the US from Iraq. Or Israel from Palestine. I just refuse to buy Israeli oranges and see that as my contribution :D. Note that self-determination is a crucial westphallian principle. I am unsure if Crimea will ever rejoin based on that principle, but self-determination still needs to be expressed in a legitimate way. Which will also take decades.
Rugian Member	Sun Sep 04 10:00:17 Pillz Member Sun Sep 04 09:38:07 Jergul said he opposed Russia's annexation of Crimea (confirm nhill?) and he's stated multiple times he opposes Russia's current invasion. I'm aware of that. I'm also aware that the only effective response against Russia's invasion is a military one, and he's opposed to that. Europeans are a stupid people and they set themselves up for this situation by intentionally starving both their energy supplies and military capabilities. The solution isn't to cave in on Ukraine, it's to fire up the nuclear and coal plants, place a shitton of orders with Raytheon and Lockheed Martin, and dial back the welfare state to free up cash and lessen Europe's attractiveness for every rape-happy immigrant.
jergul large member	Sun Sep 04 10:02:01 I have said "it will take decades" for a while now. A post or post-post, or post-post-post putin regime would want sanction relief and political detent with the West. What exactly is your game plan? Help Ukraine win militarily, demand reparations, watch Russia's muslim population spiral out of control and for us to long for the orderly, responsible muslms like ISIS who at least could be reasoned with?
jergul large member	Sun Sep 04 10:04:01 I am not opposed to supporting Ukraine militarily. My caveat is "easily sustained". A caveat that allows Ukraine to defend itself, but probably not mount major offensive operations. The current status is unsustainable.
jergul large member	Sun Sep 04 10:06:58 Ruggy Oh, you want the Europe to implode. Well, that is one way of removing a global competitor. Is it ok with you that our national self-interests include not imploding?
Pillz Member	Sun Sep 04 10:10:33 "I'm aware of that. I'm also aware that the only effective response against Russia's invasion is a military one, and he's opposed to that." There was a solution it this, it was diplomacy. Some time between 2002 and 2022. Now there is no effective response. Maybe the EU would have taken things slowly with the sanctions, and worked itself up to a crippling (for Russia) sanctions regime in a few years. Militarily there's no effective response. Either you initiate WWIII or you bankrupt Europe. "Europeans are a stupid people and they set themselves up for this situation by intentionally starving both their energy supplies and military capabilities." Right "The solution isn't to cave in on Ukraine, it's to fire up the nuclear and coal plants, place a shitton of orders with Raytheon and Lockheed Martin, and dial back the welfare state to free up cash and lessen Europe's attractiveness for every rape-happy immigrant." Also right, except that first part. Revisit the issue in 5 years with a non military response. But either way, I disagree with jergul. Ukraine's borders are very much fluid for the foreseeable future, and they're never extending back to where they were.
jergul large member	Sun Sep 04 10:15:41 Pillz It may not, but any permanent changes have to be based on internationally recognized expressions of self-determination. For Crimea for example, but also relevant for several other Ukrainian oblasts. The Maidan revolution may possibly have set the stage for the independence of some provinces. Not everyone wants to be part of Europe in the form envisioned by the revolution. But this is for decades in the future.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sun Sep 04 10:18:39 Supported until Russia withdraws to the 2014 borders. I couldn't disagree more with old people kicking cans down the road for coming generation to recycle, high on hopium that somehow future generations are going to solve things and stuff that have plagued humanity since there was a humanity. Just look at how great Israel and Palestine have done, and if you are not convinced by that, wait 'til I show you North and South Korea. Conflicts are never inherited and internalized into the cultural identity ever. You are in good company, this wouldn't be the first time someone bet that a country had a large and powerful enough constituency that wanted to be part of the west and was wrong.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Sun Sep 04 10:18:48 coup,not revolution.
jergul large member	Sun Sep 04 10:25:58 Nimi I am not talking about kicking the can down the road. The political and economic iron curtain has to remain until Russia gives territory back to Ukraine. There is just no way a military victory is possible or even desirable given the very predictable costs one would entail. Part of the equation is that Ukraine actually offers a better future than independence can. Entirely likely now, but according to Ukraine, each month of conflict has caused 100 billion in infrastructure damage. How much longer will a better future be true before Ukraine will never really recover?
jergul large member	Sun Sep 04 10:31:36 The number of Ukrainian refugees abroad just passed 7 million...
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sun Sep 04 10:49:34 That’s fine, I’m just saying iron curtains don’t necessarily resolve conflicts withint decades (see examples). This is even more important given you yourself have argued that Russia wants to decouple itself economically from the west. Certainly the most desirable, which is what I am taking issue with. You have to speak the language people understand, and there is a time and place for violence. If that time and place isn’t defending yourself, then we may all lay down and die. The fact that the west is illequipped to undertake the task with half of Europe with their balls in a vice, another matter. Makes it very challanging.
murder Member	Sun Sep 04 11:03:34 "There is just no way a military victory is possible ..." That's ridiculous. We're just not willing to crush the invasion.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Sun Sep 04 11:47:03 "We're just not willing to crush the invasion." lol you can't. you've been supplying your good nazis and with cash,weapons and training them in the latest natonian methods of terror warfare for the last 8 years.
Daemon Member	Sun Sep 04 12:02:07 "you've been supplying your good nazis" But why do you support the bad nazis (= Russians)? Don't you want to be on the good side, too?
Pillz Member	Sun Sep 04 12:13:02 Lol
Pillz Member	Sun Sep 04 12:14:09 Daemon probably wrote a very passionate letter to the German Foreign minister to intervene on behalf of the nazi with the goofy Hitler tattoo they captured the other day.
Rugian Member	Sun Sep 04 12:25:46 Jergul I am saying that I want to see European countries be both energy self-sufficient and tough to invade. How would that result in your countries "imploding?" Jergul and pillz Relying on diplomatic and economic pressure to do the trick does seem like a kicking the can down the road option. We all know that Russia still has buyers for its oil, and Gazprom has been doing fine. Half-hearted sanctions and bans on vacations to Paris are not going to cause Russia to cave. Russia is the one and only reason that separatists in any part of Ukraine have had any sort of momentum since 2014. Whatever legitimate greivances there may be over Maidan aside, they are entirely responsible for the situation in the east. Allowing a situation where they remain dominant over those territories for the long term (years or decades) is essentially rewarding their bad behavior. Basically your strategy seems to be to hope that you get a USSR part deux, where a liberal reformist movement in Russia results in a negotiated settlement becoming possible. I would just remind you that every authoritarian regime in the world since 1990 has looked at the USSR as an example of what not to do, and clamped down hard on any attempts to implement political and economic reforms. Long story short, if you're hoping for another Gorbachev to come along any time soon, you're going to be disappointed.
Pillz Member	Sun Sep 04 13:05:52 Jergul expects the situation to resolve itself in decades. I think the situation is going to end up with Ukraine a land locked state the size of Hungary. The question is what to do about it now, as it unfolds. Subject Europe to an energy crisis over winter, invade and fight Russia, or kick things down the road. Since both options 1 and 3 have the same effect (Russia retaining control over much of the Ukraine) for at least the next decade, and option 2 is unacceptable to anybody but murder... Option 3 seems the best, so Europe might recover.
Pillz Member	Sun Sep 04 13:07:55 The fa t is that after 2014 both the US and EU failed to take the threat of invasion seriously. You can not expect Ukraine, with self admitted casualties of a thousand a day, which is about to start conscription women as of October 1st, to stage some sort of recovery. Russia still hasn't taken off the kids gloves.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sun Sep 04 13:43:34 Don’t worry once half of Europes population has frozen to death, we won’t need as much energy :)
jergul large member	Sun Sep 04 17:28:20 Nimi Putin's regime wants to decouple from the West. There will be other regimes. The famous example of patience working out for the majority at least is the dissolution of the USSR. I am still saying this is a time and place for violence, just not a time and place for unbridled violence. It follows no viable pathway. Ruggy Europe is tough to invade. Particularly for as long as Russia is bogged down in Ukraine. Energy independence is also a stated goal and a desirable one from an iron curtain perpective. I am not sure "rewarding bad behavior" is a fair characterization of sustainable support to Ukraine and punishment to Russia. Pillz I dont see Russia willing to commit as much as that would take. Russia too wants a sustainable conflict because the real bad things begin when Ukraine and Russia have peace (Nato and EU membership). Why not then just have a sustainable forever war?
Rugian Member	Sun Sep 04 17:36:02 "The famous example of patience working out for the majority at least is the dissolution of the USSR." Pretty sure I had already addressed this...
Pillz Member	Sun Sep 04 17:59:50 @jergul Nothing west of the Dnieper is going to be Russian on a map, anyways. NATO membership for Ukraine is largely irrelevant if Ukraine doesn't border Russia anymore.
Pillz Member	Sun Sep 04 18:01:43 Also, this level of conflict is not sustainable for Russia long term. They wanted a frozen conflict, a la Donbas 2014-2022. This has to come to an end eventually. What end that is going to be... I doubt Ukraine keeps a border with Russia.
jergul large member	Sun Sep 04 18:04:59 Pillz You have seen the article 5 meme. Do you think Russia is ever going to let Ukraine be the triggerman for that. Ruggy Pre-empting does not equate addressing the matter unless you meant you had mentioned it. Then, sure. I am advising Western support for heavy sanctions, for important humanitarian relief and for enough military support to keep Ukraine in the game. Show me a winning scenario for surging military support and I will look at it. Otherwise, sustainable is the key, irregardless of the need to appease Ukraine with ever more stuff.
jergul large member	Sun Sep 04 18:07:00 I dont think buffer state principles scale down to a micro state level. Overall, the losses are not sustainable. But losses since March?
Rugian Member	Sun Sep 04 18:12:47 Jergul Oy vey. I said that the likelihood of us ever seeing a USSR 2.0 is nil. The authoritarian regimes of the world learned never to do that again. They'll send tanks to run over protestors before they do anything that would threaten what they consider to be their territorial integrity.
Pillz Member	Mon Sep 05 07:58:03 @habebe - G7 has announced a fixed price for Russian oil ($60) - Russia shut down nordstream 2 (LNG) indefinitely as a result Then 2 days later your good friends who don't fuck with your oil announced they're cutting production beginning october by 100k barrels a day But I forgot, Saudi Arabia never fucks with your oil supply! http://www...ahead-opec-meeting-2022-09-05/ OPEC must not be fans of G7 price fixing At the same time, when Iranian oil would be a nice thing to have on the market, the US refused to agree to Iran's terms in their latest negotiations. I guess US/Western governments are at war with oil and gas, and their own citizens. Or maybe OPEC is at war with the US?
jergul large member	Mon Sep 05 08:45:49 Ruggy By protesters, you mean the putsch were various leaders met at a dacha and transferred USSR State powers to the respective republics? Zero tanks were involved.
Pillz Member	Mon Sep 05 08:47:05 And no police stations set on fire while occupied
jergul large member	Mon Sep 05 08:50:58 "TASS, September 5. The number of refugees arriving in Russia from the territory of Ukraine and Donbass has exceeded 3.9 million, law enforcement agencies told TASS on Monday. "As of Monday, more than 3.9 million refugees, including 618,000 children, have crossed the Russian border since February. Half of them are citizens of the Donetsk and Lugansk People’s Republics," the agency's interlocutor said. Only 33,000 people are in the temporary shelters, the rest are staying with relatives or on their own. Medical, legal and psychological support has been organized for them. Also, the refugees are given SIM-cards and lump sum allowances of 10,000 roubles (about $164) per person. More than 7.7 billion rubles have already been paid." ============ Well, that is a 2% population bump for Russia.
Pillz Member	Mon Sep 05 09:02:55 Poland has taken in about the same number of refugees, although most probably move west to Europe. Ukrainian population pre invasion was 43 million 11 million have fled the country. Approximately 7 million were living in Russian held territory (let's call it 5m now). So Ukraine has lost approximately 16/43 million residents... Although men & women aged 18-60 can no longer flee so they solved that I guess
Pillz Member	Mon Sep 05 09:04:02 Didn't you project they've be left with about 20 million people earlier? Looks eerily accurate at this rate.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Sep 05 09:17:42 Jergul No he is pointing to the very thing you described and saying that all authoritarian regimes currently in existence, studied that and will never let such a thing happen again. It was a case study on what not to do. Things have changed a lot since then. Monitoring people in the digital age and shutting things down is much easier. Moving/leaving for dissenters is easier, that in itself acts as a release valve. Soviet Union stopped people from fleeing, Islamic Republic of Iran, does not. By all means, leave. And come back, if you wish, but you know the rules. Not the same world. I am thus unsure where the fountain head of such optimism springs from, that the regime after Putin will not have integrated the past into their present. Or as I said earlier this bet that there is a large and powerful enough constituency in a country. There is this delusion, which I also had, that liberal democratic values will not be soundly rejected, as long as people are educated and middle class enough, and what not. There is no reason to believe this, based on a few decades of success in a dozen or so countries, most of them having relatively similar cultures.
murder Member	Mon Sep 05 10:10:14 "Or maybe OPEC is at war with the US?" That was always the purpose of OPEC.
murder Member	Mon Sep 05 10:15:35 "At the same time, when Iranian oil would be a nice thing to have on the market, the US refused to agree to Iran's terms in their latest negotiations." Israel must be appeased even if it leads to our destruction. That's just the way it is.
Paramount Member	Mon Sep 05 17:55:58 Protests in Paris now also. http://twi...?s=21&t=dSu7zl7dj5DMf_C6t0DlnQ
pillz Member	Mon Sep 05 18:11:06 Nothing to see here, will definitely blow over. People will forget about energy costs until their next bill comes in at least. Why not have utilities defer payments on balances above normal until spring, so we can blame russia again when those bills start coming in
jergul large member	Mon Sep 05 18:14:07 Nimi All authoritarian regimes studied that provincial leaders might meet at a vacation resort and decide to dismantle the state they are part of? Well, good to know. Lets watch th UK go into IMF stewardship and revisit exactly what cost is worth paying.
jergul large member	Mon Sep 05 18:15:17 Israel and Ukraine must be appeased* Fixed that for you murder.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Sep 06 07:04:04 You sure nothing significant happened prior to this meeting where the mortician simply stated the obvious, "it's dead"? Mkay.
Habebe Member	Tue Sep 06 07:26:20 http://twi...?t=Q7lP7E5p76mDXb7GVabipw&s=19 It seems Germans are now protesting.
Habebe Member	Tue Sep 06 07:26:20 http://twi...?t=Q7lP7E5p76mDXb7GVabipw&s=19 It seems Germans are now protesting.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Sep 06 07:31:44 Tell the polizei to get in there and disperse the crowds now! But you have to say it with Arnolds voice.
murder Member	Tue Sep 06 07:46:35 "Fixed that for you murder." Are you sure you oppose the invasion? Have you double checked?
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Sep 06 08:52:21 I think the invasion is bad, followed by: 5 months of singularly criticizing Ukraine and bending over backwards to give a nuanced view on how we could give Russia the cake but also eat it ourselves as well. Here is a thing that didn't age well, me defending Jergul in march. :P
pillz Member	Tue Sep 06 09:16:56 It isn't appeasement, it's a solution. Sanctions regime, energy crisis, and the remainder of the Ukrainian people being ground to dust are not, it would appear, the solutions to this problem. Anyways, i dont think jergul has said anything about appeasing russia, or russia having its cake. Hes just been honest that there is no way to resolve this militarily. But please Nimatzo, join a foreign mercenary legion and show us all how this can be over and done with and the orcs pushed back to siberia?
Habebe Member	Tue Sep 06 09:20:13 It seems the Russians play better chess than the West.
Peter Walsh Member	Tue Sep 06 09:27:14 http://www...-korea-us-intelligence-ukraine Russia buying millions of rockets and shells from North Korea, US intelligence says Official says deal shows Russia continues to face supply shortages as invasion of Ukraine grinds on
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Sep 06 09:40:16 Shut up pillz you cock gobbler. I already said that with the current state of Europe, it will be challenging. There is no ambiguity between what I think is the right thing and what I think could realistically be achieved. Can't say the same about you. If it was up to me, we would be building nuclear reactors and arms factories and our militaries, at least as late as 7 years ago.
pillz Member	Tue Sep 06 09:56:00 Congratulations, those are excellent ideas. Unfortunately you're 7 years too late. I guess you get to stay warm this winter, just for your effort? You can say, and repeat, and pray that it will be challenging. But it won't be challenging, it is just impossible. Short of an actual war between NATO and Russia, there is simply no possibility for this to end the way you'd like. Russia did spent the past 8 years preparing for this moment. You've spent the past 8 years funding terrorists, dismantling your energy industry, and hiding behind twitter bot farms. It is too late to go back now.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Sep 06 10:03:53 You have to piece together the entire jergulian puzzle here, he tell tales about how technically impossible it is to build nuclear energy at scale and also scuffs at the idea of expanding our militaries. He will say we do not have the military production capacity, fair enough, now ask him if he thinks we should build more arms factories :) Of course he will not say that no we shouldn't, but explain that it is a technical and economic impossibilities. Did you hear me explain how the Red and Greens in Sweden through policy and extra taxes made nuclear energy more expensive and through policy and subsidies made wind turbines less expensive, so they could tell us it was the market that shut down those reactors, not policy? You obviously do not understand how Scandinavian Social democrats work. All ideology is dressed up in the language of reason and rationality. This is an unsolvable puzzle by design. And I just had this discussion with Jergul in this thread, he thinks if we just turn the other way with the passage of time, this will solve itself. The anchoring logic for why we do not need to that very much and eventually have all the cake. Patience as he says we should have, isn't afforded to those that do not prepare for war. Those people patiently go extinct.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Sep 06 10:06:35 "those are excellent ideas. Unfortunately you're 7 years too late" And this is the thing you don't understand, which I cover in the above post. People like Jergul, wouldn't want us to start that 7-15 year journey now either. I am fighting these idea complexes, more than I am fighting Russians, Ukraine is just the latest battle ground.
pillz Member	Tue Sep 06 10:10:37 I've read and understood what both of you are saying. You're just conflating Jergul's (albeit misguided) musings on the future with immediate appeasement of Russian actions. The reality is that it is not appeasement. Why would you build more arm factories? Are you stupid, do you post here while huffing paint thinner or something? You're making a dozen incorrect or ignorant assumptions about both the military reality facing the EU, about the economics of the military industrial complex, about the situation in ukraine, and all that while relying on and being clearly influenced by this illusion of russia thats been fed to you. I dont want to type up an essay so maybe when im at the desk ill expand.
pillz Member	Tue Sep 06 10:12:42 "And this is the thing you don't understand, which I cover in the above post. People like Jergul, wouldn't want us to start that 7-15 year journey now either. " Again, fundamentally poor analysis the realities of both the EU and the military industrial complex. and maybe worse still, inspired by a mistaken understanding of russian foreign and defence policy.
pillz Member	Tue Sep 06 10:14:11 Jergul is a fucking retard, to be sure, but at least he does understand Russia better than most people. He did predict essentially every Russian action leading up to this, and he also called it that europe would not begin arming itself after 2014.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Sep 06 10:15:46 There are several ways to skin this Ukrainian cat, and I think mine is the one that goes to the core of the problems. I have nothing invested in Ukraine, I said it pretty early on, I don't give a shit about Ukraine, as cold hearted as that sounds. Of course I care about the misery, but mostly I care about what nuclear powers do. Yes yes the USA went berserk in the ME, but the saving grace with the USA is that, it actually does get bored, because the USA is a decentralized country with actual elections and people don't like wars that go on forever. Not so much in an autocratic country. So I have no idea, short of a rebellion and/or assassination of Putin, how exactly Russia is going to get bored with a conflict that you all tell us they can maintain forever, and that they have more to gain from, than the West is willing to lose for. Made even worse by the fact that Russia has yet to go full Chechnya. I don't think you guys have really thought through your entire narrative you are selling, the plot holes are filled with hopium.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Tue Sep 06 10:22:07 yeah,and putin's worse than hitler!
pillz Member	Tue Sep 06 10:22:46 EU nations can't and shouldn't attempt to field actual militaries. Your societies just aren't built for it, you do not have the budget headroom nor the political will to use them. You want to begin stockpiling modern munitions, which have shelf lives measured in handfuls of years at most, in the case of most US weaponry. Just as we see now with European arsenals, the stuffs only good when you use it. Your arsenal levels were embarrassingly low to start off with, with much of it no longer serviceable... so having more is really only going to be prohibitively expensive (those pesky budgets). You need 7-15 years to prepare to be able to undertake a campaign of rearmament that would let you stare down Russia. And you really should have started that 7 years ago, youre right, and i agree, itd have made this more fun to watch.
murder Member	Tue Sep 06 10:24:23 "Russia did spent the past 8 years preparing for this moment." It looks like they needed at least another 8.
pillz Member	Tue Sep 06 10:26:40 @Nim Are you being serious? The US didn't end its rampage in the middle-east because of democracy. They did it because for 15 years military intelligence think tanks and the department of defence having been sounding off on the fact the US can not fight multiple wars at once and there was nothing more for them to do or take there. 5 broken or failed states in 20 years is not a bad record.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Sep 06 10:29:00 "The reality is that it is not appeasement." You can call it what you want, I have explained what I mean without using this trigger word of yours. "Why would you build more arm factories?" Didn't you read what I wrote? I am taking things that Jergul has said at face value. My point is not the details which you seem to obsess over while missing the picture that is the puzzle, it is that people like that will sell you the problem and then explain throuhg the most obvious and simple physical solution. I have no idea if what Jergul has said in the past about the West lacking production capacity to sustain a war with China is true or not, I also don't care and it is irrelevant to the point I am making. "but at least he does understand Russia better than most people." It's almost like he is a Russian :) Again, missing the point, so I would take it easy with the diagnosing of chemically induced brain damage, when you have trouble parsing through what I am saying.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Sep 06 10:30:19 *then explain that the most obvious and simple physical solution isn't possible*.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Sep 06 10:35:22 retard pillz first say we shouldn't expand our militaries and the goes on to detail how he thinks we should expand our militaries and that we have had too small militaries. On the back of making half a dozen assumptions about what I actually meant when I said build more arms factories. Yes I meant we should have 5 million standing armies armed with muskets, not modern munitions. Are you actually delusional and think that Europe has the production capabilities for a prolonged conflict?
pillz Member	Tue Sep 06 10:36:41 I can phrase what youre saying, I just recognise youre saying from a position in some alternate reality, where your dreams matter or come true.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Sep 06 10:37:36 "Are you being serious?" Like cancer. All presidents elected after W made the campaign promise to end the war on terror. The last two did.
pillz Member	Tue Sep 06 10:58:23 Not because the voters demanded it in the streets or at the ballot box.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Sep 06 11:01:27 Actually, you have thus far failed misreably in understand what I am saying and the intention, despite me explaining it for you. Also contradicted yourself quite hard, while trying to play "expert". lol dumbass why would you build more arms factories?-Pillz You should build more modern ammunition. -also pillz, who is apparently ignorant about European production capabilities while being an a European strategic expert who also says Europe has embarrassing low arsenal levels, yet failing to deduce how that happened. The arsenal levels match the production capabilities. That's why. Save me your wall of text to try and save face. Because we both apparently agree that Europe should expand their militaries and their energy production. Now go back and re-read what I said earlier and how we got here.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Sep 06 11:08:13 "Demanded", again you are rephrasing, which apparently in you world means dumbing things down until they mean nothing or anything. What I said was and I quote "the saving grace with the USA is that, it actually does get bored, because the USA is a decentralized country with actual elections and people don't like wars that go on forever." This is true and I am serious. Democratic countries have to keep selling the war to their people. And then I explained that the three presidents elected all made leaving a campaign promise. I have no idea WTF demanded even means here, but this is evidence in support of what I am saying. Not a single supporter of the war won. Every candidate running against Obama, did everything they could to distance themselves from W. Grasp after straw all you want, but I have waste enough time.
pillz Member	Tue Sep 06 11:12:45 "retard pillz first say we shouldn't expand our militaries and the goes on to detail how he thinks we should expand our militaries and that we have had too small militaries. " ESL shitskin needs to learn to read. I proposed merely that EU nations get their affairs in order, before any attempted rearming of the continent, because no one nation is capable of doing anything and as collective individuals you will effectively just be wasting resources. Next, there is no fucking point in a large scale rearmament, as i said clearly. However, if you want Europe to have a competent military force because youre a gullible, weak minded shit for brains fearmongerer who expects russians to steal your wife and siphon your car's gas for their tanks, ok. Spend 7-15 years negotiating between member states how to commission a joint military force, identify the objectives of that joint force, determine the organizational and command hierarchies... and then focus on retraining and rearming it according to its chosen purpose. I dont think you're going to end up with a military much larger or much more heavily stockpiled than you have now as individual states, but at least any response is unified and you'll presumably have the budget to -maintain- your current stockpile levels, rather than watch them waste away in storage as you forget about them for a decade. Probably also side step the problem of purchasing platforms and then deciding you cant purchase the requisite ammunition, the vast majority of your armed forces equipment being comprised of 40+ year old soviet era hardware, etc. and just as necessary and effective if youre pissing your wifes panties thinking about putin, territorial defence forces like we see in Estonia, Poland, etc, specifically along the border with Russia & Belerus.. just like poland is doing. Then at least when putin comes for sweden in your nightmares, you can cower behind a pole with a working stinger
pillz Member	Tue Sep 06 11:16:16 "Not a single supporter of the war won. Every candidate running against Obama, did everything they could to distance themselves from W." youre the one grasping at straws and making correlation = causation case for withdrawals from iraq and afghanistan Did afghanistan suddenly only become unpopular in 2021 with voters? is there a reason obama, trump, and biden didn't fulfill their promises or heed their voters before that? Fuck off, you fairytale living subhuman retard crying to the internet he found wasps
jergul large member	Tue Sep 06 11:40:39 Nimi I am not really sure we disagree on anything. Of course we have to start up weapon production lines and should have done that in 2014. I have mentioned that occassionally even because I was not happy at all about losing invasion defence capabilities. Of course we should have reset our militaries for invasion defence instead of ill-founded adventures in creating micro expeditionary forces. Invasion defence capabilities is exactly what Ukraine needs too btw. Nuclear power is not technically impossible in the West. It used to be economically impossible. That is no longer true as there is a new volatile price regime were anything is affordable, and also, energy production is now a matter of national security. I seldom am critical of Ukraine's defence. I am however very critical of the conflict coverage. Lying is not good, particularly if policy makers feel that the truth might nuance public opinion. And surely you can see we are appeasing the crap out of Zelenskij? It is politically impossible to say no to anything, the best we can do is procrastinate and kick demands down the road. That is not healthy at all. And it definitely is an appeasement strategy. I dunno. Identity politics is obviously a meme. It does not suit me at all and shoe-horning me into a binary position will always be wrong.
jergul large member	Tue Sep 06 11:41:04 We disagree on wasps.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Tue Sep 06 11:43:38 go nazis!
jergul large member	Tue Sep 06 11:45:38 Ukraine should also have built "wide" invasion defence forces from 2014 instead "tall" elite unit structures designed to fight low intensity conflicts cost effectively. It would have had a military far better suited to the task at hand.
jergul large member	Tue Sep 06 11:53:40 Of course I want as hard a sanction regime as we can sustain against Russia and I want it to last forever. Of course Russia has made huge mistakes. Those Batalion Tactical Groups. How stupid was that in an actual conflict? Great for low intensity conflict though. And using them as if every town could be captured, held and supplied by driving up to city halls and putting up Russian flags. Very cost effective, low intensity, and complete fail. You see the pattern of failure for both sides?
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Tue Sep 06 11:57:03 " I am however very critical of the conflict coverage. Lying is not good, particularly if policy makers feel that the truth might nuance public opinion. " then you should be critical of how this all started. with a cunt handing out cookies to nazis. with said nazis raping and killing their fellow citizens with said nazis shooting down and airliner. with said nazis continually terrorizing the people of donbas for 8 years. all this with the blessing of so called liberal democracies,who regularly rape countries but because they use condoms,ribbed for the victim's pleasure it's not so bad.
pillz Member	Tue Sep 06 12:04:41 "Of course I want as hard a sanction regime as we can sustain against Russia and I want it to last forever." This definitely runs counter to your geopolitical views of the past. Are you all in for an American, or a Chinese, hegemony?
Habebe Member	Tue Sep 06 12:52:34 "Of course I want as hard a sanction regime as we can sustain against Russia and I want it to last forever." They probably help the financial situation of Norway something fierce.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Sep 06 13:06:26 Jergul I think I gave you a pretty massive box as a scandinavian Social democrat (not even Norwegian) and complexity by describing you as a puzzle. Well, I can't really argue the same case when you have done a 180 in one post on all of what I said. Just as recently as days ago, you were for the nth time telling me that the reason nuclear power isn't happening is because we are confused over the choice of reactor design. I'm glad if we agree that the only thing stopping nuclear power and that has effectively destroyed it in places like Sweden and Germany are purely politically driven. It has nothing to do with the current price volatility, nothing, zero. What has surfaced since the price volatility that is wrecking the middle class voters, is balls in for example the CEO of the Vattenfall the state energy company to just verbatim say that the reactors were shut down due to political decision not economics In addition to that there is a renewed interest in people who had connected these simple dots 10 years ago, but were ignored completely by mainstream media. That is it. It's just sad that for the truth to prevail, shit needs to get rekt and people need to get poorer. I remind that you that the Swedish Social democrats were first totally against shutting down more reactors, then they needed the greens and had to let them join the government, so they made a 180 and omg nuclear power we can't have that so the told us "the market shut them down", and now that the green are no longer in the government and electricity bills are forcing people out of their homes and it is an election year, they have made some half hearted promises to "look at all possibilities". Because most likely they will need the greens again :) It does not get any more clear what the problem is. Sorry to box you, but everything you have said about this follows the same script, which is why I said in the other thread, they are not made in good faith. These people (excluding present company) have an ideological resistance to nuclear power, so they use politics to manipulate the playing field (putting their own "experts" in Vattenfalls board) and then they dress their religious beliefs with reason and logic. Fair enough if my prediction about what you would say in regards to the expansion of military production wasn't true, but it was not that long ago you were ridiculing the idea of rebuilding Sweden's military. It was like march or april. If the assumption is that *I* am saying we should have an carrier groups and what not, I don't. I am completely agnostic as to the quality of this expansion/rebuilding. I leave that to the military expert to figure out what we need to build strong defence.
jergul large member	Tue Sep 06 15:26:57 Nimi New energy costs and their national security connetations changed the equation. My appologies if I was slow to internalize these facts (my electricity bill is currently cheaper than the 10 year average, so it is still theoretical to my experience). My resitance is not on principle. Nuclear power is fine. But it used to be prohibitively expensive with no way to streamline production of NPPs in the West. We definitely differ on our views on social democracies, but has that changed? I felt we had established an impass there and it is just a waste of time to talk about it. I was rediculing the idea that ordering stuff is the same as recieving stuff. We have to get production lines up and running and at that time...and still now even, I see little sign of military industrial mobilization. We are losing stuff in Ukraine way faster than we are replacing it.
jergul large member	Tue Sep 06 15:30:06 This definitely runs counter to your geopolitical views of the past. Are you all in for an American, or a Chinese, hegemony? Not to me. Westphallian principles are important to me.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Tue Sep 06 15:32:09 "We are losing stuff in Ukraine way faster than we are replacing it." once you give stuff to someone,it's no longer your stuff.
jergul large member	Tue Sep 06 15:40:35 ST True enough, but that does not embrace the dynamic nature of Ukraine always needing more stuff from Western arsenals.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Tue Sep 06 15:47:03 well that's how the junky/dealer relationship goes.
jergul large member	Tue Sep 06 15:54:40 In the analogy, the problem here is that the Colombian connection is missing.
Paramount Member	Tue Sep 06 16:00:57 We actually have an electricity surplus in Sweden and we export a large amount of electricity. And this despite the fact that two nuclear power plants have been decommissioned. It was not the Social Democrats who closed the nuclear power plants. The nuclear power plants are privately owned and it was the owners of the nuclear power plants who chose to shut down the nuclear power plants because they were old and needed major maintenance work in order to continue operating. It was not profitable to keep them going any further. The reason why Nimatzo, who lives in southern Sweden, has to pay very high electricity prices now is partly because the Swedish electricity market was deregulated in 1996 and then the EU forced Sweden to introduce different electricity areas. Barely a year ago, the electricity area of southern Sweden was connected to the continent. The prices in southern Sweden are therefore set by Germany, France, England etc. Then there are other factors as well that play into the now high electricity price. EU’s sanctions and economic war on Russian energy, for an example.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Tue Sep 06 16:06:19 nay,nay! it's all about ideology! plus the head nazi enabler in ukraine is a coke head
Habebe Member	Tue Sep 06 16:16:32 "ST True enough, but that does not embrace the dynamic nature of Ukraine always needing more stuff from Western arsenals." By Western arsenals he means the US and to a lesser extent UK/Poland. No one else has given anything worth note.Cheap skates, especially Germany.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Sep 06 17:18:53 Jergul And that is fine, I just thought I would explain that it sounded to my ears as what I have been hearing here for the past years. Most of this idea that nuclear power is expensive comes from how Americans failed miserably to standardize their approach, France manged to do it, China has as well. To be fair I may not personally have that many issues with social democracy in principle, most of my issues are with the Social democratic party of Sweden. I do not do a good job separating the two, perhaps because they are difficult to separate. If we are talking about the idea of a strong public sector, progressive taxes and a well regulated market economy, I got no beef yo.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Sep 06 17:33:49 Paramount You are an imbecile. The differences between zone 1 and 4 was insignificant before Barsebäck was shut down, that is in addition to the combined heat and power plants that have been shut down in the south of Sweden. http://www.../elomraden-och-prisskillnader/ "de senare åren har vi snarare sett en motsatt trend i södra Sverige det vill säga att kraftverk läggs ned. Detta förklaras dock av flera andra aspekter vilka påverkar elproducenter, däribland nya styrmedel/skatter, de historiskt låga elpriserna samt långa tillståndsprocesser. Nedläggningen har påverkat tillgången på el i södra Sverige och därmed ökat behovet att överföra el från andra områden. Samtidigt har stora investeringar av vindkraft gjorts i de norra delarna. Dessa trender har drivit på prisskillnaden inom Sverige". And as you can read, the minions you are going to vote for, did this while at the same time not investing and expanding the grid for more power transfer from the hydro plants in the north, and just as icing on the cake, most wind turbines are also built in the north. LOL :) Shit paramount, even you would have done a better job and you are practically brain dead! Lets go over this again. Policy made CHP and Nuclear more expensive and subsidies made it cheaper to build wind turbines, but since no one wants them in their back yard, most of it has been built in sparsely populated areas AKA the North. Bu bu muh deregulation in 1996!
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Sep 06 17:42:43 Sorry Ringhals nuclear powerplant. When was that premature shutting of the last 2 reactors there? dec 2019 and dec 2020. The timing is impeccable. Bu bu muh deregulation in 1996! Muh Putin prices! http://www...ads/2021/07/Prisskillander.png Oh look what happened to the price difference compared to zone 1. Obviously energy market contribute a lot here, but even a chimp like you should understand, shutting down those reactors put us in a shittier position.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Sep 06 17:52:22 Paramount can only parrot S and MP talking points, he does not have the capacity to do his own thinking and research. "We actually have an electricity surplus in Sweden" ^He does not even understand the basics of how an electric grid works. This is a classic low resolution talking point. I invite you to do some reading. You can start with this one: http://www...a-elmarknaden-rapport-2022.pdf
Paramount Member	Tue Sep 06 18:23:36 ”Obviously energy market contribute a lot here” That was what I said. The reason for why your electricity cost is so high is because the price is set by the market on the continent (by Germany, France, England etc.) ”shutting down those reactors put us in a shittier position” Not us. You are in a shitty position. My electricty is much cheaper than yours because I live in a better zone than you do. Blame the EU. It was they who forced Sweden to create these zones. ”Waaa the reactors were shut down Waaaah” Yes, the owners decided to shut them down. The reactors were old and needed major maintenance. Sweden has safety rules regarding nuclear reactors. You can’t run them indefinitevly. Even a weedsmoking crackpot like you understands that, right?
Paramount Member	Tue Sep 06 18:33:40 ”Paramount can only parrot S and MP talking points” Even Vattenfall and the Swedish Energy Agency says that Sweden has a energy surplus.
	show deleted posts