Utopia Talk / Politics / FBI V Trump 5:Return of the Trumpasaurus

Habebe Member	Mon Sep 05 00:27:19 In short, dems want to catch him on a technicality of nor labeling something a certain way based on a non legally binding set of rules. The DOJ however seems more keen on ignoring classification as its an oddly absolute power. The espionage act as I understand it* has no requirement of anything being classified or not. If it seems your software (or cookie recipe) you sold to the Saudis is a national security risk, you can be prosecuted. The above is just a random example.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Mon Sep 05 01:03:26 it's not Dems, it's the DOJ/FBI raiding a criminal for violating the law (& given repeated chances to avoid the raid) but it's clear you won't care what he does ever, no matter how irresponsible or deceptive or dangerous
tumbleweed the wanderer	Mon Sep 05 01:18:13 and I look forward to seeing what loyal cultist will perjure themself at trial to claim the Trump admin policy was to leave no indication of declassifications (I’ll guess nobody) whereas prosecutors will have no trouble finding Trump admin witnesses completely unaware of this policy and to testify to how absurd it would be (if his lawyers even claim stuff declassified, they haven’t been in court filings, just on Fox/Newsmax) for a separate crime committed, not sure if his loyalist lawyer will decide to fall on her sword and lie that she certified the search on his behalf without letting him know of the subpoena nor asking if he knew of any docs... she may do it just to avoid the death threats that she’d get if she admitted Trump was aware
jergul large member	Mon Sep 05 06:32:51 Habebe Seems more that Citizen Trump is trying to get away from espionage charges on a technicality.
Habebe Member	Mon Sep 05 07:56:40 Jergul, What technicality?
Habebe Member	Mon Sep 05 08:11:34 As for the witness who claimed they were declassified. What does grant it extra authenticity is he claimed this prior to the raid. I forget his name, he was an Indian guy.
jergul large member	Mon Sep 05 08:41:19 That citizen Trump claims he technically declassified everything while he was president.
murder Member	Mon Sep 05 10:33:37 "It would be like the FBI or even congress limiting pardon power without getting the overwhelming consesus needed to change the constitution." There is no constitutional authority to declassify information.
murder Member	Mon Sep 05 10:34:42 Also it doesn't matter because stealing federal property is a federal crime.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Mon Sep 05 11:33:07 "As for the witness who claimed they were declassified" he's not a witness... he's Kash Patel, a Trump loyalist, still on the payroll, just repeating what dear leader said
Habebe Member	Mon Sep 05 12:07:53 "There is no constitutional authority to declassify information." Yes, Ive cited this numerous times. Article 2 deems him the commander in chief. The Supreme Court has affirmed this. The Dept. Of the Navy V Egan (1988) The entire classification system arose for the purpose of the president. This is even supported by far ledt fact checkers. http://www...bility-declassify-anything-an/ A few excerpts "The president’s classification and declassification powers are broad Experts agreed that the president, as commander in chief, is ultimately responsible for classification and declassification. When people lower in the chain of command handle classification and declassification duties — which is usually how it’s done — it’s because they have been delegated to do so by the president directly, or by an appointee chosen by the president." "The majority ruling in the 1988 Supreme Court case Department of Navy vs. Egan — which addressed the legal recourse of a Navy employee who had been denied a security clearance — addresses this line of authority. "The President, after all, is the ‘Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States’" according to Article II of the Constitution, the court’s majority wrote. "His authority to classify and control access to information bearing on national security ... flows primarily from this constitutional investment of power in the President and ***exists quite apart from any explicit congressional grant***." "Steven Aftergood, director of the Federation of American Scientists Project on Government Secrecy, said that such authority gives the president the authority to "classify and declassify at will." In fact, Robert F. Turner, associate director of the University of Virginia's Center for National Security Law, said that "if Congress were to enact a statute seeking to limit the president’s authority to classify or declassify national security information, or to prohibit him from sharing certain kinds ofinformation with Russia, it would raise serious separation of powers constitutional issues." The official documents governing classification and declassification stem from executive orders. But even these executive orders aren’t necessarily binding on the president. The president is not "obliged to follow any procedures other than those that he himself has prescribed,"Aftergood said. "And he can change those." The national-security experts at the blog Lawfare wrote in the wake of the Post’s revelation that the "infamous comment" by President Richard Nixon — that "when the president does it, that means that it is not illegal" — "is actually true about some things. Classified information is one of them. The nature of the system is that the president gets to disclose what he wants." "There’s no question that the president has ***broad authority to declassify almost anything at any time without any process****, but that’s not what happened here," said Stephen I. Vladeck, professor at the University of Texas School of Law. (Regarding a 2017 situation)
Habebe Member	Mon Sep 05 12:09:51 "he's not a witness... he's Kash Patel, a Trump loyalist, still on the payroll, just repeating what dear leader said" And yet these statements seem to have come as I understand it prior to the raid, something about a book. Anyway, who would you expect to be a witness of not ppl around him?
tumbleweed the wanderer	Mon Sep 05 12:35:38 a witness would be someone in the White House actually witnessing Trump's (obvious lie) standing order, or a sane method of reviewing each of the 200 documents to decide on declassification (which he hasn't even claimed to have done) show me Kash claiming he witnessed it Kash Patel saying 'Trump declassified them' is no different than his lawyers claiming it (on TV), they are repeating what he put out and if that standing order that definitely didn't happen DID happen, why have the numerous inner circle people who left the administration & been critical of Trump never brought up his reckless & irresponsible declassification method? (which definitely didn't happen... thus answering the question) although you are correct on the Espionage Act, when the affidavit came out on TV they were noting none of the crimes mentioned required classification, so they may just be avoiding the issue entirely even though he's clearly lying
tumbleweed the wanderer	Mon Sep 05 12:45:28 also, not sure why this isn't being noted by media, but Trump once blurted out by tweet: "I have fully authorized the total Declassification of any & all documents pertaining to the single greatest political CRIME in American History, the Russia Hoax. Likewise, the Hillary Clinton Email Scandal. No redactions!" to which media then obviously sought documents, and White House lawyers had to argue in court he wasn't serious... even Mark Meadows telling the court "The president indicated to me that his statements on Twitter were not self-executing declassification orders and do not require the declassification or release of any particular documents" (meaning adults told him 'whoa, what the fuck are you doing?') showing (yet again) Trump's idiocy around classification (as he also various times blurted out classified shit & had to rely on 'i'm prez i can do it!' even though he wasn't intentionally declassifying, just being a fucking idiot) anyway, given the idiocy around that declassification tweet then having adults have to tell courts he didn't mean it, he would have been extra fucking careful about his declassification procedures (or an adult would, which you people are presuming he is) so not just mental/secret/never-getting-done methods, that he for some reason didn't notice (nor did any of the non-existent witnesses to the non-existent policy)
obaminated Member	Mon Sep 05 13:07:25 The fbi done fucked up big time. They went after a former president due to bias and got nothing despite lying over and over again. This is really bad.
murder Member	Mon Sep 05 13:13:24 "Article 2 deems him the commander in chief" Commander in Chief has shit all to do with declassifying documents. The Constitution grants no such power to anyone.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Mon Sep 05 13:18:32 "The fbi done fucked up big time. They went after a former president due to bias and got nothing despite lying over and over again. This is really bad. " he's not even joking... this is what the cult broadly now believes thanks to poisonous lie after poisonous lie (& not just by Trump, Fox fully selling its soul now)... ask any of these cultists to provide evidence of any of it, i'd love to see it (i doubt obaminated will be providing any)
obaminated Member	Mon Sep 05 13:34:45 https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11182181/Judge-GRANTS-Trumps-special-master-request.html
obaminated Member	Mon Sep 05 13:34:56 http://www...ps-special-master-request.html
Habebe Member	Mon Sep 05 13:48:52 Murder, The SCOTUS disagrees , as laid out earlier in the citation from 1988. Do you have any evidence to the contrary? Tw, Patel told Breitbart on May 5. He also said, “Trump declassified whole sets of materials in anticipation of leaving government that he thought the American public should have the right to read themselves.” So apparently it was in an article to breitbart. But again, we agree the espionage act doesn't care aboit classification status at all, so it's a moot point sort of. Obam, Yeah, but it seems a day late and a dollar short, the documents have already been reviewed.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Mon Sep 05 15:08:58 "The fbi done fucked up big time." how so? "They went after a former president due to bias" proof for this is what? "and got nothing" um... you're insane "despite lying over and over again" demonstrate one lie (i can name multiple from the Trump side...) "This is really bad." how so? the special master just another delay by Trump, & i'm fine with it... given Fox/GOP completely poisoned the public view, this will slightly push back on it Trump will just move to another bullshit attack (& also will declare the special master biased against him) but there will be no way to break through to the cultists... it's just a tug-of-war for those weird people in the middle who can't figure out the blatantly obvious ----------- "Tw, Patel told Breitbart on May 5" i don't doubt Trump declassified some documents... i'm doubting he declassified -these- documents they DO get marked when declassified, it makes no sense to declassify yet make no indication of it... how is he 'letting the public see those documents' if nobody knows they're declassified & they don't release them themselves
tumbleweed the wanderer	Mon Sep 05 15:23:10 here's proof Kash is not a witness, just a spokesman: http://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1566760888853463042 ^him saying 'Trump said...', he wouldn't be relying on what Trump said if he had personal knowledge also 'i declassified everything around the cover sheets' is the next stupid story i guess, that solves it! the cover sheets aren't marked as he only did all the other pages... totally makes sense... of course, not all have the cover sheets, & still none marked, the individual pages would get marked as well
Habebe Member	Mon Sep 05 15:51:55 "don't doubt Trump declassified some documents... i'm doubting he declassified -these- documents" Your entire basis for that is the markings though. I think you see what you want to see. As for last, best case scenario for your argument is muddy waters as no one is 100% certain which documents were or were not specified. Straw grasping. But again, the classification seems meaningless if they are going for espionage act charges. Just sensationalism. I'm with forwyn on this. I mean he MAY have done something bombshell horrific. But with what little evidence they have provided it looks like they got nothing major.
Dukhat Member	Mon Sep 05 16:09:03 Wow, that Trump judge really bent reality to help delay things for Trump. What a fucking kangaroo court we have now with those fucking Trump appointees.
Habebe Member	Mon Sep 05 16:24:24 I think they shouldnhave had a special master from the beginning. But, that's on Trump for not asking early on. At this point I don't see much point other than someone to point out stuff they wrongfully took. I mean, they have seen all the documents by now.It was only 15 boxes and mostly magazines and empty folders, how long could it have taken?
tumbleweed the wanderer	Mon Sep 05 18:45:22 "Your entire basis for that is the markings though. I think you see what you want to see. " yes, the things that would definitely be there if declassified, thus they weren't... the documents being all marked classified is a lot stronger evidence they are classified, then Trump claiming he declassified them w/ no supporting evidence & no markings crossed out or documentation of any kind if something is declassified is has to be assessed for potential damage done... he had HCS (human source) shit which seems to be most concerning... so did spies/informants get put at risk? it never was properly declassified (i'm sure it wasn't declassified at all, as his transparent lies are clear to me anyway), so no assessment was made on ANY of this shit (it can't have been as then they'd be properly marked) & nobody can be sure who has seen it or who may now have copies because fucking moron packed it w/ newspaper clippings & random shit & had it sitting around for nearly 2 years
tumbleweed the wanderer	Mon Sep 05 18:52:19 "It was only 15 boxes and mostly magazines and empty folders, how long could it have taken? " no, it was 15 boxes the first batch (that didn't require a raid) it was ~30 more boxes in the necessary raid as Trump's team lied that all were returned, then FBI tipped off that more was there, & there certainly was (& Trump has confessed to knowing stuff was there, thus establishing the lie as well as the possession)
Habebe Member	Mon Sep 05 18:59:35 "if something is declassified is has to be assessed for potential damage done..." No it doesn't. That may be standard procedure (idk) but there is no law binding that. But again, he isn't being charged with anything because of classification status.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Mon Sep 05 20:58:54 well assessing the info should be important to any mentally-fit adult... but I know Trump gets a pass on literally everything from his supporters he -should- get charged for having the classified docs (all evidence suggests classified, no evidence suggests otherwise) but we’ll see
tumbleweed the wanderer	Mon Sep 05 21:17:34 the best joke I’ve seen on all this is the tweet: “Can he be tried as an adult?” I’m not the only one who has noticed all of his behavior patterns are those of a child
McKobb Member	Tue Sep 06 01:41:41 conservatives need to see trump as a liability and maybe i will vote for them again.
earthpig GTFO HOer	Tue Sep 06 02:39:09 Where were all these Freedom Lovers during Wikileaks, etc?
Habebe Member	Tue Sep 06 05:27:56 McKobb, Alot are seeing Youngkin as the best uniting figure, Desantis rules up the base better though.
Forwyn Member	Tue Sep 06 09:43:36 "Where were all these Freedom Lovers during Wikileaks, etc?" Screaming about it, while the Obama admin ruthlessly hunted whistleblowers and leakers down and locked them up in solitary, and the left was utterly silent because of who was in charge.
Dukhat Member	Tue Sep 06 10:45:27 "Obama admin ruthlessly hunted whistleblowers and leakers down" Citation needed. He also pardoned that transgender who subsequently embarassed him/herself into oblivion. Foreskin once again has to make a bizarre exaggeration if not outright lie to justify his regressive worldview.
Habebe Member	Tue Sep 06 11:12:59 Obama did use the espionage act more than most any POTUS, but for scale it was still in the single digits, its just a rarely used act. He was harsh with Snowden, but Trump dashed our hopes too , Biden seems to not be changing course either. So yeah, Obama has generally been more anti WB than most, but that's also not a drastic departure from every other potus.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Tue Sep 06 11:31:55 Trump is not comparable to a whistleblower, just a criminal he just took & kept classified docs home for his own pleasure (or classified docs that only he knew he declassified, which didn't happen, but his fans are willing to believe as they believe anything, and makes no sense as everyone in gov't would still believe they were still classified... & let's say Kushner or Bannon get caught w/ classified docs, & Trump says 'those are others i declassified'... does that work too for the gullible?) clear criminal acts (& unlike Hillary, Trump definitely needs prison to learn a lesson, on this & many more things)
tumbleweed the wanderer	Tue Sep 06 20:10:06 “A document describing a foreign government's military defenses — including its nuclear capabilities — was found by FBI agents who searched Trump's home, according to people familiar with the matter.“ ~WaPo maybe not true... but sounds like what a child would find neat to have, plus of value, thus exactly what you might expect this irresponsible moron to have taken
Habebe Member	Wed Sep 07 01:12:22 Last week it was US nuclear codes, Ill wait and see what else. Leaks out. As for Jesse, its now confirmed he gets his news from joy Reid @ MSNBC. She was the one suggesting Trump was getting CIA officials killed, even her panel seemed to think such claims are dubious.
murder Member	Wed Sep 07 06:52:06 It was likely intel on Iran's nuclear program because that is what makes sense.
Habebe Member	Wed Sep 07 07:01:03 That would be awesome, leak it now.
murder Member	Wed Sep 07 07:01:21 "Murder, The SCOTUS disagrees" SCOTUS finds a lot of things in the US Constitution ... until it changes it's mind. The assertion that the president has the authority to compromise the security of this nation and its citizens is not only laughable ... it's treasonous. The president may be commander in chief, but if the Russians decide to invade, the president doesn't have the authority to order our troops to "stand back and stand by". Commander in Chief does not mean Pharaoh.
murder Member	Wed Sep 07 07:02:41 "That would be awesome, leak it now." And why would you want Iran to know what we know and don't know about it's nuclear program?
Habebe Member	Wed Sep 07 07:05:02 Murder, Who do you think the constitution does grant that power to? I want everyone to know It and capabilities.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Wed Sep 07 07:09:02 trust israel. they know what you need to know so that you are knowledgeable with iran's nuke program.
murder Member	Wed Sep 07 07:16:05 "Murder, Who do you think the constitution does grant that power to?" Nobody. "I want everyone to know It and capabilities." Well then it's a good thing you're not in charge. "trust israel. they know what you need to know so that you are knowledgeable with iran's nuke program." Where do you think the intel came from?
murder Member	Wed Sep 07 07:19:53 I hope Joe Biden pins Republicans down on this bullshit about the President having unilateral power to declassify anything he wants. That essentially means that the president has the power and authority to inform the enemy of all our capabilities and and vulnerabilities ... and troop movements and locations. Pin Republicans down and make them defend that stance over and over again.
Habebe Member	Wed Sep 07 07:42:54 IDK why your so against it. Its stated law, its literally the consesus of all the courts & scholars since it existed. Because its not your stance that you just think it shouldn't be a power but that it actually is not a power vested in the commander in chief. I get that liberals often confuse the two without distinction.
murder Member	Wed Sep 07 08:42:28 "Its stated law" No it's not stated law.
Habebe Member	Wed Sep 07 08:54:30 You have some strange beleif based on, Absolutley nothing apparently. Is there any case law that supports your claim?
murder Member	Wed Sep 07 09:36:31 Yes, the text of the US Constitution. Also the fact that there are laws and procedures governing the declassification of information.
Dukhat Member	Wed Sep 07 11:23:02 Barr coming out loudly against that judge's moronic decision on Fox News is not making Trump look good. A surprise indeed but a welcome one.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Sep 08 22:41:04 a propaganda show working to downplay the nuclear capabilities document by saying the CIA has a website giving a lot of this info: http://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1568069449072214016 it's just so hard to admit maybe he did something wrong... i haven't even heard anyone give a single explanation for why he had (& kept) all these docs, even a bullshit one
tumbleweed the wanderer	Sat Sep 10 14:00:12 "Better check Bedminster... On May 6, NARA emails Trump to say material is missing and may be at MAL. On May 9, Trump gets on a private plane from Palm Beach to Bedminster. On video, several boxes are seen loaded onto the plane. [video/photos]" (same type of box he had his memorabilia/classified docs in) http://twitter.com/petestrzok/status/1568569527113338882 all his properties should be raided simultaneously... & a cavity search for good measure
Habebe Member	Sat Sep 10 14:09:12 "Barr coming out loudly against that judge's moronic decision on Fox News is not making Trump look good." That IMO holds more wieght than Cheney and such. Tw, First they told us he stole nuclear codes and was selling them, now we're down to mostly empty folders and some other countries nuclear capabilities. Yawn
tumbleweed the wanderer	Sat Sep 10 14:23:25 "they told us he stole nuclear codes" who told you that? i've seen it nowhere except from the right ------------------------ "and was selling them" same question... as far as i can tell that was also your side misrepresenting the Espionage Act (which does NOT require selling or even giving material to foreign nations) ---------------------- "now we're down to mostly empty folders" no, now we're -up- to also including many empty folders there existing empty folders -in addition- to the classified documents can't possibly lessen the concerns -------- "Yawn" provide me w/ the defense for him having these documents (& lying in response to subpoena about returning them) even his lawyers don't say they were declassified in court, agreeing the Special Master needs Top Secret clearance (which i don't even agree about, i see no reason Special Master needs to review the Top Secret docs... what example could possibly be Trump's property over the gov'ts)
Habebe Member	Sat Sep 10 14:42:44 ""they told us he stole nuclear codes" who told you that? i've seen it nowhere except from the right " Are you serious? It was all over the left. You yourself may have even talked about it.
Habebe Member	Sat Sep 10 14:45:54 http://www...r-code-claims-mar-lago-1733219
tumbleweed the wanderer	Sat Sep 10 16:17:43 "This sparked outrage on social media, with some users worried Trump could have given away the U.S. launch codes." so nobody said he did then...
tumbleweed the wanderer	Tue Sep 20 13:05:55 uh oh, the Special Master wants details from team Trump on what he (supposedly) declassified (the Special Master selected from team Trump's picks) 'sir... that's our transparently obvious lie, you know there are no details, you are just to accept it...'
murder Member	Wed Sep 21 21:19:03 Joyce Alene @JoyceWhiteVance In a unanimous ruling that includes two judges appointed by the former president, the 11th Circuit stays Judge Cannon's order & permits DOJ to resume use of classified materials in both its criminal & intelligence investigations. http://twi...nce/status/1572739722119712769 ============================== Justice Clarence Thomas is the circuit justice for the Eleventh Circuit
Habebe Member	Wed Sep 21 21:23:13 Did anyone get the reference on the title name? Just curious.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Wed Sep 21 21:47:48 Truckasaurus? good to see the appeals court not being idiotic... now we'll see if team Trump wants to continue to embarrass themselves by appealing (the fucking moron will want to of course)
murder Member	Wed Sep 21 22:00:21 "Did anyone get the reference on the title name?" Nope. Had to ask Google.
Habebe Member	Wed Sep 21 22:06:05 No, sir mix slot "Return of the bumpasaurus" was an album of his. The "I like big butts" "baby got back" guy. But I vaguley remember truckasaurus from the simpsons.
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