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Utopia Talk / Politics / The nanny state - Norway edition
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Sep 26 10:04:58
http://www...ack-all-supermarket-purchases/

Statistics Norway wants to receive several million daily receipts from food stores, signalling a new era in state data collection. Privacy advocates and the supermarkets themselves are unhappy.

People living in Norway are used to big government. But the latest news coming out of Oslo is a surprising new step down the road of data collection that not everyone is happy with.

Statistics Norway (SSB) is the state-owned entity responsible for collecting, producing and communicating statistics related to the economy, population and society at national, regional and local levels.

Because everything about an individual living in Norway is linked to their fødselnummer (birth number), SSB already knows where you live, what you earn and what's on your criminal record.

However, according to a report by NRK, they now want to know where you shop, and what you buy.

Data collection from supermarket transactions
SSB has ordered Norway's major supermarket chains NorgesGruppen, Coop, Bunnpris and Rema 1000 to share all their receipt data with the agency. Nets, the payment processor that is responsible for 80% of transactions, will also need to provide data.

“A link between a payment transaction made with a debit card and a grocery receipt enables SSB to link a payment transaction and receipt for more than 70% of grocery purchases,” SSB said in an assessment.

Such a collection will signal a new era for SSB, as the agency now seeks to collect data from private companies and not just public registers. Given the rise in identity theft in Norway, it's no surprise that some people have concerns with the move for increased data collection.

Why is SSB doing this?
SSB claims they want a less time-consuming way of collecting and analysing household consumption statistics in order to inform tax policy, social assistance and child allowance.

In 2012, thousands of Norwegian households wrote down what they bought in a paper booklet. SSB says the survey was time-consuming and error-prone. So back in 2013, discussions began on whether they could take advantage of digital tracks already left by customers.

SSB is adamant that they are only concerned with statistics at a group level: “When the purchases are linked to a household, it will be possible in the consumption statistics to analyze socio-economic and regional differences in consumption, and link it to variables such as income, education and place of residence.”

More data collection than ever before
NTNU researcher Lisa Reutter is among those concerned with the trend of increased state data collection. She researches how the public sector is being digitised and is using more and more data.

“When we increase the public administration's ability to classify, predict and control citizens' behaviour using large amounts of digital data, the balance of power between citizen and state is shifted,” she said.

NorgesGruppen to appeal
Both privacy advocates and the retail industry themselves are unhappy with the proposal.

The biggest player in Norwegian grocery retail, NorgesGruppen operates the brands Many, Kiwi, Joker, Deli de Luca, Spar, Mix and others. They will appeal the decision and ask the Norwegian Data Protection Authority for guidance, according to NRK.

Coop spokesperson Harald Kristiansen said that while Coop is positive that SSB has a basis for making good statistics, the company will nevertheless consider appealing the order.

Payment processor Nets said they share concern “about the collection and compilation of data that may be problematic and intrusive for the individual citizen.”

Data collection in supermarkets is nothing new
Of course, it's only fair to point out that many of us already hand over all our purchase data to the supermarkets themselves in the form of loyalty programs.

While we get a discount, the supermarkets get access to valuable information about individual purchasing habits and group-level purchasing patterns.

However, the big difference between these loyalty programs and the SSB proposal is that supermarket loyalty programs are optional.
jergul
large member
Mon Sep 26 10:40:48
So you are arguing that the supermarkets have to update their agreements so that those joining know anonymous statistical data is provided to SSB too?

SSB does have mandatory stuff you are required by law to do. I was selected for that a couple years ago.

“When we increase the public administration's ability to classify, predict and control corporate behaviour using large amounts of digital data, the balance of power between corporations and the state is shifted,”

Fixed the quote.
Habebe
Member
Mon Sep 26 12:16:22
Reminds me of an actual WEF statement.

"Welcome to 2030, you have no privacy and own nothing and life has never been better"

http://twi...?t=flk6SpFoaUP8AmjQV3YvPQ&s=19
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Sep 28 03:02:41
Jergul
As long as you can opt out of data collection, I think they should have any agreements they want.
jergul
large member
Wed Sep 28 04:31:56
They can opt out of data collection by not joining loyalty schemes. This is about company control of information, not about government overreach.

The underlying problem here is that grocery shopping is a virtual monopoly where 3 main actors have used their positions abusively. Owners behind these companies have increased their personal wealth by 50% since 2019.

Raw data on how it plays out will likely weaken their positions over time and lead to lower costs to consumers and a better functioning free market.

Norway is expensive for many reasons, but one of them is virtual monopolies that abuse their market position.

Norway has just cracked down on ownership of natural resources by upping taxation rates significantly. Anti-trust measures like statistical office data collection fits into that scheme.

Free markets are highly regulated markets.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Sep 28 04:47:04
"They can opt out of data collection"

Not according to the article.

You are mixing in a lot of other problems (wealth accumulation and monopolies) that are not solved with a central actor collecting all the data for their own purpose independent and irrespective of said problems. The things you are saying are just contradictory to what SSB says the purpose is and concerns of privacy groups, who are not driven by the ambition to fondle the balls of grocery monopolies.
jergul
large member
Wed Sep 28 06:00:29
Nimi
Opting out by leaving the loyalty programme.

Data collected as it stands belongs to the company and the statistics office wants that company data.

It is more how statistics can be used by policy makers. Most of SSBs justification rotates around improving datasets and giving better transparency.

It impacts on the power between state and commerical actors, not between state and the consumers commercial actors are using to shield themselves from scrutinity.

The devil is in the details of course. Data needs to be anonymized in a way that individual purchases cannot be traced to individual consumers.

And yes, I trust the state a hell of a lot more than I do corporations.
jergul
large member
Wed Sep 28 06:00:49
http://www...nkaxept-fra-nets-branch-norway
Rugian
Member
Wed Sep 28 06:39:16
jergul
large member Wed Sep 28 06:00:29

"Data collected as it stands belongs to the company and the statistics office wants that company data."

Yeah no, that excuse doesn't fly. Your government doesn't need the data itself to understand the data being collected.

This is a naked power grab by your government.
jergul
large member
Wed Sep 28 06:46:46
Ruggy
It sure is a powergrab by the statistics office. A power grab against corporations.

Corporations are not your friends bro. Physical entities acting like those legal entities do would be in psyche wards for sociopathic psycopaths.
Rugian
Member
Wed Sep 28 07:00:57
jergul
large member Wed Sep 28 06:46:46
Ruggy
"It sure is a powergrab by the statistics office. A power grab against corporations."

No. You don't need a total data dump in order to determine the type of data that corporations are collecting from consumers.
Rugian
Member
Wed Sep 28 07:03:47
Governments are not your friends bro. Individuals acting like those bunch of politicians and bureaucrats do would be arrested for trying to arbitrarily butt into your life and become your surrogate daddy.
jergul
large member
Wed Sep 28 07:09:13
Ruggy
Its not a total data dump. Just purchasing data.

Government is perhaps not your friend in the US. Here we have the rule of law.

It must be sad to be so distrustful, yet feel you live in a democracy.
Habebe
Member
Wed Sep 28 07:11:29
Isn't the Norweigan government distrustful of Norweigans?
Habebe
Member
Wed Sep 28 07:13:30
Neither cirporations nor governments are your friends.

You should only trust Habebe, I am your friend.

Or fuck it all and live in a cabin in the woods and buy a dog, a cat if your feeling lazy.
Habebe
Member
Wed Sep 28 07:22:01
Speaking of nanny state Norway...


http://www...saying-that-men-cant-be-women/

Norwegian feminist Christina Ellingsen is facing a prison sentence of up to three years for saying that men cannot be lesbians or mothers. Country contact for Women’s Declaration International (WDI) in Norway, Christina is being investigated under hate crime charges for tweets she made between February 2021 and January 2022, directed at Christine Marie Jentoft, a representative for Norwegian trans activist group, Foreningen (FRI), such as, “You are a man. You cannot be a mother.”

-------

That seems pretty insane.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Sep 28 07:22:52
Jergul

It literally says that the difference is that one is optional and the other isn't, if you have another source that explains this better, great. But just contradicting the words is not very stimulating.

"It impacts on the power between state and commerical actors, not between state and the consumers commercial actors are using to shield themselves from scrutinity"

Again, there are words in that article, that you are just contradicting or inflating with your own wants and desires to solve other problems.

"The devil is in the details of course. Data needs to be anonymized in a way that individual purchases cannot be traced to individual consumers"

It really can't be, if they include income and family constellation.


"And yes, I trust the state a hell of a lot more than I do corporations."

2 and 2 does not add up to 4 here Jergul. You are for the government collecting more and more data. You are also for central bank issued digital currencies that can track every dime and nickle. Currencies that can and will be programmed to do the "right thing" for society and the environment. And at the same time assured us of your values, saying that the way that China dealt with the pandemic (which is applicable to future crisis and disaster *cough* climate apocalypse) would not fly here. How are you going to resist them exactly when you have handed over all flips and switches for them to turn off all your means to make your own decisions?

Your pre-internet ideas about trust is admirable, but they belong in the 1970's and should have died in the 1990's.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Sep 28 07:31:36
"Corporations are not your friends bro."

Neither are politicians and their parties our friends. They are driven by the same inherent flaws and desires as corporations and their leaders.
jergul
large member
Wed Sep 28 07:45:27
Nimi
The State is a benign force in Norway because it is transparent, highly regulated and has inherent checks and balances that limit abuse of power.

The same is true of corporations only to the extent laws and regulations compel it to be so.
Rugian
Member
Wed Sep 28 07:48:16
Imagine believing that an all-powerful entity that you have no (statistically significant) control over is your friend.

Lol jergul. Does Norway's school system not teach you guys about the hundreds of millions that the communists liquidated?
jergul
large member
Wed Sep 28 07:48:17
I already said people can opt out of loyalty programmes if they feel the company taking ownership of the data they provide is using it in ways people dislike. Including providing that data to other companies or to the government.
habebe
Member
Wed Sep 28 07:49:23
Jergul, Always the Nationalist/Patriot.
jergul
large member
Wed Sep 28 07:52:17
Ruggy
Unmitigated capitalism has killed more people than communism ever has or will. You should note that the worse excesses of the State are dwarfed by what unregulated market forces will habitually do.
jergul
large member
Wed Sep 28 07:55:31
1 billion deaths can be attributed to bad faith efforts by the tobacco industry. To name one example.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Sep 28 07:58:45
"The State is a benign force in Norway because it is transparent"

My friend, everything that the WEF is saying is transparent and happening in the open, yet you and others keep ridiculing what is being said as "conspiracy theories". Fact is that with so much data and limited individual bandwidth, it's all just noise and "conspiracy theories".
habebe
Member
Wed Sep 28 07:59:53
The difference being

1. Communists forcibly executed and starved people to death.

2. People smoked cigarettes and believed admittedly lies about their products.

You can agree, these are not the Same.

If Phillip Morris held people at gun point you may have a case.
jergul
large member
Wed Sep 28 08:05:26
Nimi
I think I redicule CTs as CTs. I am not a fan of WEF and do not consider it a force for good.

This pussyfooting around global warming in particular. Balancing CO2 emissions is far less traumatic and would last far shorter than wwii rationing for example.

But we fuck it up instead by all kinds of crazy regimes.
jergul
large member
Wed Sep 28 08:11:45
Habebe
A billion dead is a billion dead. The executives knew and know (you think the industry has changed much in targetting the developing world?). exactly what they were doing. More so than communist leaders where the deathtoll was more a function of incompetence than one of design. There are exceptions, but those have a total deathtoll in the low 10s of millions.

The tobacco industry is comparable to expressely planned genocide.
jergul
large member
Wed Sep 28 08:13:01
#finalsolutiontothenonsmokerquestion
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Sep 28 08:23:32
There is nothing in those threads I am thinking about, that are CT. I think you are just not appreciating what happens when one deconstructs the road to hell paved with good intentions.

"we fuck it up instead"

We being the politicians who are preoccupied with virtue signaling, wasting money and political good will straining gnats and swallowing camels? We being the politicians who enact policy that often has the opposite effect? My distrust isn't based on loonie fringe ideas, but everything that has and is happening, completely transparently.
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