Utopia Talk / Politics / Nord Stream attack

Paramount Member	Tue Sep 27 11:44:58 It has been attacked at three different places. At two places in Swedish waters and in one place on Danish waters. Explosions. Both the Swedes and the danes says it can only have been an attack carried out by someones military. They are saying it was either an attack/scuba diver, submarine. In my opinion, it must be the US who did it. They been trying to sabotage the Nord Stream 1 and 2 for a long time. And the US may be afraid that Germany may start to buy gas from Russia again sometime during the winter or in the near future, so the US blew up the pipelines. Who else would want to destroy the pipelines?
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Tue Sep 27 11:50:43 Who Will Rid Me of This Meddlesome Pipeline? http://www...e-of-this-meddlesome-pipeline/
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Tue Sep 27 11:52:44 GERMAN ECONOMY MINISTER HABECK: SPECULATIONS ABOUT THE REASON FOR NORD STREAM 1 LEAK ARE CURRENTLY FORBIDDEN. http://twitter.com/financialjuice/status/1574798049716670466
Sam Adams Member	Tue Sep 27 11:54:07 lol. i see that soviet propaganda is going to work overtime for this one.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Tue Sep 27 11:57:32 BALTOPS 22: A Perfect Opportunity for Research and Resting New Technology Posted on June 14, 2022 by Seapower Staff http://sea...ch-and-resting-new-technology/
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Tue Sep 27 12:03:49 Pres. Biden: "If Russia invades...then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it." Reporter: "But how will you do that, exactly, since...the project is in Germany's control?" Biden: "I promise you, we will be able to do that." http://twitter.com/ABC/status/1490792461979078662
Paramount Member	Tue Sep 27 12:07:31 If the US attacked German property on Swedish and Danish waters, are all three of us at war with the US now?
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Tue Sep 27 12:07:48 Victoria < fuck the eu> Nuland: “If Russia invades Ukraine, one way or another, Nord Stream 2 will not move forward.” http://twitter.com/StateDept/status/1486818088016355336
Paramount Member	Tue Sep 27 12:21:48 If a US official can say Fuck the EU, I’m going to say Fuck Ukraine.
Habebe Member	Tue Sep 27 12:24:50 Swordtail, Normally I'd say a POTUS wouldn't possibly Freudian slip THAT hard....BUT this man twice a week gets lost on stage. Seriously, how does that KEEP happening?! Can't we paint arrows on the floor? Or make sure to have an announcer that can point him in the right direction so wander off towards.
earthpig GTFO HOer	Tue Sep 27 12:28:51 The possible suspects are are essentially limitless. An aggressor identifies targets based on a spectrum. On one axis is low value v high value. On the other axis is soft target v hard target. This is why the Embassy of Lichtenstein probably isn't a particularly secure building in most countries. It's a soft target, but doesn't matter because it's also so low value that no one would bother. This is an incredibly high value target. How soft is it? This is a question. - How deep is the pipeline at the locations of the explosions? Is this in SCUBA range? Could any old Finn or German have swum on down there to plant explosives? - Is it possible that software induced the explosions, IE is it possible that it was a hack? If so, I'm inclined to assume that pirated Windows XP Russian Language edition isn't a particularly hard target.
Habebe Member	Tue Sep 27 12:29:12 Paramount, I'm with you in saying Fuck you to both Victoria Nuland & the Ukraine. Fun facts: Victoria Nuland is the mother of Supreme Court Jester Elena Kagan. Kagan, appointed by Obama who famously said "Ukraine is a.too priority for Russia, not the US" and was against intervention. I know what I said.
Habebe Member	Tue Sep 27 12:37:38 I mean, Russia does prefer to act with "plausible" deniability. They have reason to shut off the gas later down the road and Russia's simps can claim "it was a malfunction" Now the US has clear intent, we make alot of $ selling petrol/NG, but we are mostly at capacity, this helps my energy stocks maybe, but they are already going off Russian energy. If someone could just go to it, yes it could be any loony tune. So now we are primarily left with who wants to see Germany and the EU really suffer and or who wants chaos. Well that list grows. Best to start where EP says and see who we can eliminate first.
LazyCommunist Member	Tue Sep 27 12:44:45 Hehehe you won't see it comeing! http://www...-gas-installations-2022-09-27/ Norway to strengthen security at oil, gas installations
Paramount Member	Tue Sep 27 12:45:35 ” The possible suspects are are essentially limitless.” Well, Nord Stream says they are investigating. Denmark and Sweden are probably also investigating now, or will be. However, if it was the US I doubt that we will find out or that the US will be officially named.
Seb Member	Tue Sep 27 12:48:24 Doubt it was the US - to much risk for too little reward. Ukraine possible - remove the possibility of European backsliding. Russia possible - demonstrate will and intent to permanently switch to new markets, or false flag to implicate Ukraine.
murder Member	Tue Sep 27 12:51:11 "Seriously, how does that KEEP happening?! Can't we paint arrows on the floor?" We can but then he'd have to remember that the pointy end indicates the direction he needs to go.
Paramount Member	Tue Sep 27 12:53:02 Does Ukraine (fuck Ukraine, its a corrupt former Soviet state) have the means to carry out an attack like this at three different spots in the Baltic Sea? Does Ukraine have submarines? Do they even have access to the Baltic Sea? What about Olaf Scholz, Germany? I suspect that he is a CIA asset.
murder Member	Tue Sep 27 12:58:51 I'd put my money on the Poles.
Habebe Member	Tue Sep 27 13:35:39 "Norway to strengthen security at oil, gas installations" Well that does suit US/EU motives. Murder, "I'd put my money on the Poles." How many pollacks does it take to sabotage a pipeline?
earthpig GTFO HOer	Tue Sep 27 13:48:00 "Ukraine possible - remove the possibility of European backsliding." I don't think Ukraine (at least state sanctioned) is likely. If/when this winter is particularly painful, that'll lead to the elections of Putin appeasers who see him as a brother conservative authoritarian. Which is bad for Ukraine.
Paramount Member	Tue Sep 27 13:56:55 From Swordtails link: ” Experimentation was conducted off the coast of Bornholm, Denmark, with participants from Naval Information Warfare Center Pacific, Naval Undersea Warfare Center Newport, and Mine Warfare Readiness and Effectiveness Measuring all under the direction of U.S. 6th Fleet Task Force 68.” So the US was in the area of Nord Stream, just of the coast of Bornholm, where one of the explosions just happened. The US was /is there with the 6th fleet and with divers specialized at mines/explosives. Seb: ”It is possible that Russia did it. They attacked their own interests” Lol Polish MEP thanks the USA for attacking the Nord Stream: http://twi...?s=21&t=NI-wLAgDNm9dpzSYxSWwSg
Paramount Member	Tue Sep 27 14:08:15 It is possible that American divers from the US 6th fleet planted explosives on Nord Stream during the BALTOPS 22. And now when German demands to open Nord Stream again is increasing, the US simply detonated their explosives and destroyed the pipelines. Thousands of people in Gera in Germany against Olaf Scholz's policy and the explosion of energy and gas prices. They demand an end to sanctions on Russia and the reopening of the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline. Demonstrations also in other German cities but EU media censors them. http://twi...?s=21&t=NI-wLAgDNm9dpzSYxSWwSg I guess the case has been solved. The US has attacked Germany on Swedish and Danish territorial waters.
Seb Member	Tue Sep 27 14:10:19 Earthpig: Equally, if the pipelines are out of commission, how will appeasing Putin help? The cost is sunk, literally.
Seb Member	Tue Sep 27 14:11:42 Paramount: It's possible, but seems a little extreme for the US. They have other ways to pressure Germany.
Seb Member	Tue Sep 27 14:12:34 Paramount: That's a convincing reason for German govt to do it also though.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Sep 27 14:15:19 Dont forget the jews. By blowing up the russian pipeline israel and their new friend saudi arabia makes more shekels on oil exports, including from their newly captured hezbollah gas field. -paramount, probably
Paramount Member	Tue Sep 27 15:20:13 Or maybe it was Putin after all? Was Seb right all along? This tweet just showed up on my feed: http://twi...?s=21&t=NI-wLAgDNm9dpzSYxSWwSg
earthpig GTFO HOer	Tue Sep 27 15:45:11 Ballpark sea bottom in the Baltic Sea where it looks like the pipes are. Eyeballing this map with Google Earth's negative numbers for "above sea level." This is subject to being drastically wrong. Map: http://gra...GY/xmpjozoewvr/leakage-map.jpg Looks like they went for the trenches near the Baltic States (perhaps a security precaution), but put the two Nordstream pipes in shallower water (probably cheaper) as they got closer to Poland/Sweden/Germany. They had choices in both cases, but went deeper near the Baltic States, chose to lay the pipes in more shallow waters as it got closer to Sweden. Google says totally recreational/civilian SCUBA divers can go down to 40 meters. These pipes are in the ballpark 50-70m deep range, probably as a security compromise to get them below where any yahoo with something that can go boom underwater could do it. But commercially available civilian equipment can get you down that far. Weekend casual SCUBA divers are ruled out, but any "serious" recreational deep divers 100% could have done this. Professional underwater welders could also do it. I'm reading lots of "explosion prevention tips" for underwater welders, so apparently that's a risk, and if the equipment they already have access to can be made to go boom on accident, it goes without saying that it can be made to go boom on purpose. It looks like the accidental boom is one of those "slow buildup, so pay attention to these warnings to prevent it" things. Great, jerry rig something to keep doing those unsafe things, as you swim back to the surface and sail away. The fact that the 1st explosion, and the second pair of explosions, were a day apart, kind of points towards a single crew doing their own thing, I suspect a state actor would have had it all be concurrent. Total speculation on my part, zero evidence, just ruling out things and looking at what is left. State actors remain on the table, the 1 day delay shifts probabilities a tad but does not lead to anything conclusive.
earthpig GTFO HOer	Tue Sep 27 15:48:33 Patriotic Ukrainians using their own equipment/stuff/etc very early in the war (& still) shows a willingness/etc of individual and groups of Ukrainians to do what they feel is the right thing, without necessarily waiting for instructions from the central gov't. That certainly remains a possibility. Ukrainian Farmers deployed their tractors; Ukrainian underwater welders could certainly deploy their stuff (or stuff rented in Sweden) as well...
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Sep 27 15:52:06 EP They would need to operate from a surface boat though, there are radars and this isn't a particularly desolate part of the sea.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Sep 27 15:54:02 You dont necessarily even need scuba gear. Just put a bomb on a fuse drop it. Find the pipeline with a good map or an underwater drone. Do it at slack tide when there is no current. Dont need to hit it exact if you have a big bomb. The biggest hurdle by far is getting the explosives. Once you get a bomb, i could do the rest.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Sep 27 15:57:29 "They would need to operate from a surface boat though, there are radars and this isn't a particularly desolate part of the sea." An hour fuse would allow any boat to be over the horizon.
earthpig GTFO HOer	Tue Sep 27 16:01:01 Sure, all fun speculation at this point. @sa - Trying to establish the lowest blue collar baseline possibility. Probably more underwater welders with access to commercial underwater welding equipment than meteorologists with access to big bombs. @nima - So charter a fishing boat. I will note that my fairly early commentary/speculation/prediction about Putin's Winter seems to be coming along, global south famine too. :)
Paramount Member	Tue Sep 27 16:14:55 Keep the Russians out, the Americans in, and the Germans down. That’s basically what the US is doing.
Paramount Member	Tue Sep 27 16:25:27 In response to Europe's energy crisis, Putin said on Sept. 17 that if Europe wants to solve the issue, it can ignore US orders and open up the Nord Steam 2 pipeline. "Just push the button and everything will get going," Putin said. Instead, someone bombed it. http://twi...?s=21&t=NI-wLAgDNm9dpzSYxSWwSg
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Tue Sep 27 16:42:50 "Instead, someone bombed it." well how else are you gonna spread freedom fries and democracy donuts?
Habebe Member	Tue Sep 27 17:23:37 We were all wrong, we fell for the long con. Who is a Turkish citizen who has been spotted with erdagon? Dr. OZ! "Another Amazing Scuba Story From Dr Oz Film Team" http://scu...y-from-dr-oz-film-team.553429/ Why does he have so many SCUBA stories? Think about it, he senses he has a 50/50 chance of becoming a US Senator from PA, but what's the next best thing? Emperor of the revived Ottoman Empire! He is a doctor, so odds are he has been slowly poisoning Erdagon every time he sees him. If eastern Europe is freezing it will Emperor OZ's chance to strike, they could join him and together rule the Empire! Dragon will grow weaker, OZ will quickly assemble his team and finish him off. So he sent his Scuba buddies down with a submersible drone to weaken the pipeline and cause Europe to freeze. It was right in front of our eyes the whole time!
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Tue Sep 27 18:04:44 BREAKING: Germany says attack on Nordstream pipeline has triggered NATO Article 5, but it's complicated since it was by the United States http://twi...47524?cxt=HHwWiMC4pcz__dorAAAA
murder Member	Tue Sep 27 19:58:00 Damn it, we're going to have to invade ourselves.
obaminated Member	Tue Sep 27 20:10:21 This is so dumb. It was obviously the Russians. To entertain the idea that it could be any other country is utterly retarded.
Habebe Member	Tue Sep 27 21:17:02 WaPo has already blamed Putin.So clearly the WH wants to blame Russia. Greenwald pointed out something I hadn't taken full note of before.US propaganda outlets personalize actions by nations when they want to demonize a nation. Whether or not you agree with their characterization, he is right about that. Now, we all know midterms are coming up, oil reserves are empty, Biden shot his load formlowering gas prices. Markets have been calling for $100-$120+ per barrel for a while now, wouldn't it be great if they could just say "Oh, but, Putins Price hike is at it Again"
tumbleweed the wanderer	Tue Sep 27 21:27:56 Tucker says we did it and offers suggestions for Russian retaliation http://twitter.com/acyn/status/1574919819601772544?s=21
Habebe Member	Tue Sep 27 21:31:00 I mean, Biden did literally allude to it in pretty blatant terms. Its not like he hasn't Freudian slipped before.
Habebe Member	Tue Sep 27 21:35:23 Tucker apparently isn't very familiar with Starlink? Although, I guess, yeah it woild fuck up stuff temporarily. But lets face it, countries like Russia & China already have wargamed cutting internet cables. We have to.
murder Member	Tue Sep 27 21:50:36 "oil reserves are empty" lol! No they aren't.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Tue Sep 27 21:54:08 Biden said that in February... & Germany -did- suspend the project later that month over Russian actions
murder Member	Tue Sep 27 21:54:37 "Tucker says we did it and offers suggestions for Russian retaliation" Nah, he's just asking questions. It's amazing to me that we allow sedition, conspiracy, and outright treason in plain sight.
murder Member	Tue Sep 27 21:56:41 The Biden administration should take FOX "News" off the air and blame it on Russia cutting some undersea cable.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Tue Sep 27 22:02:23 here's a fuller clip of Tucker in case anyone thinks other clip out of context or something (it's not) http://twitter.com/ColumbiaBugle/status/1574921923624058887 Tucker just giving a more thorough case for it being us (& calling it terrorism, & explaining how it's bad for climate change... something to suddenly care about if you can blame Biden) plus a full-throated defense that it definitely wasn't Russia he cites same quotes as swordtail (Biden's February, Nuland's January comments) as evidence
Habebe Member	Tue Sep 27 22:17:14 Murder http://www...est-since-oct-1984-2022-09-12/ He lowered gas prices by 1. Adding more corn ethanol 2. Using the emergency reserve to stabilize peaks and slumps. 3. Getting Opec to not fuck us. As well as some friendlier signals toward big oil, meh. 1.We still have extra corn. 2.Emergency reserves were over used. 3.Opec+ is reducing supply 4. Winter is coming. 5. I bought energy stocks ;)
Habebe Member	Tue Sep 27 22:34:50 Maybe Trump did it to make Biden look bad? Would you put it past him?
tumbleweed the wanderer	Tue Sep 27 23:02:19 it doesn't make Biden look bad since no evidence we did it but now Tucker blaming us on pure speculation & suggesting Russia retaliate & how to do so, so if they did, Tucker's audience will blame Biden instead of Russia (kinda like Trump blames US presidents instead of Russia for all of Russia's actions)
tumbleweed the wanderer	Tue Sep 27 23:10:21 "Germany can never rely on Russia for energy supply again, and the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline project will never go ahead, Stephan Weil, Minister-President of the northwestern German state of Lower Saxony, said." http://oil...-Stream-2-German-Minister.html if Biden's ~8 months old comments are conclusive evidence (to Tucker) then maybe that guy did it, as he said it ~8 days ago
Habebe Member	Tue Sep 27 23:20:39 Tumbleweed, Its not unreasonable to suggest the US played a role. Hell it's not out of the realm of plausibility for OPEC. Anyone with 1. Means 2. Motivation 3. Opportunity 4. Anonymity As Understand it it seems to have been very large blasts. So it Would take a crew with some sophistication past weekend divers.
Hrothgar Member	Tue Sep 27 23:23:45 Who benefits from this sabotage? Only Russia as the blame game chaos engulfs the region. You don't think Russia knew this would happen when they blew up the pipelines covertly? This is simply a play by Russia to sow dissent and anger among EU/US in a flailing attempt to find a way to win something, anything, in the Ukraine debacle. The filthy rich, all powerful Russian Mob/Kremlin has been up to false flag shit like this for decades.
TheChildren Member	Wed Sep 28 00:13:56 "This is so dumb. It was obviously the Russians. To entertain the idea that it could be any other country is utterly retarded. " >> ur dumb u stupid moron. russia OWNS these pipelines. its literally theres. they can shut these pipelines down with a single button, they dunt need 2 sabotager there own shit especially since it cost them billions to make and brings them billions if they sell gas and oil.
murder Member	Wed Sep 28 00:55:41 "Who benefits from this sabotage? Only Russia as the blame game chaos engulfs the region." The list of suspects is actually tiny. This is a pretty audacious act, and there just aren't very many countries behave like that. This could really blow up in the perps face. The US? Maybe The UK? Maybe France? Maybe ... but why? Russia? Definitely Israel? Definitely ... but they don't appear to have anything to gain So really only 3 legitimate suspects. I can't think of any other nation that would even consider something this in your face and damn the potential consequences.
Habebe Member	Wed Sep 28 01:10:24 The Ukraine/NATO Saudi Arabia Iran China Could all have clear motives and means. Opportunity? IDK, how feasible is it to get in and out without someone knowing/looking the other way?
Paramount Member	Wed Sep 28 01:32:33 What about environmental activists? They have been complaining for a long time about fossile fuels, that we must stop using it. Ever since the war started they been saying that now is the time stop bying fossile fuels from Russia. Environmental activists are also known to resort to unconventional methods.
Habebe Member	Wed Sep 28 01:43:56 Paramount, I thought about that, but I dismissed it and it's actually the reason I added "Anonymity". No group has taken credit for it and I think they would have.
murder Member	Wed Sep 28 01:58:57 "What about environmental activists?" Not much point to destroying a pipeline that is out of commission already.
jergul large member	Wed Sep 28 02:15:16 If Russia was going to attack pipelines, it would have hit the Norwegian or British pipeline systems. The pipelines hit were under pressure, so a catagorical no to survivable wielding causing the problem. A decent echo sounder and a weighted crate of explosives on a rope for guidance is the technology you need at these depths. Pipelines are hazards to navigation (anchor fouling), so are clearly marked on all maps.
jergul large member	Wed Sep 28 02:16:54 Why is Norway not on list of suspects? Now if anyone gains from this, it would be Norway and Ukraine. The countries given monopolies by the actions.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Wed Sep 28 02:28:40 “Its not unreasonable to suggest the US played a role” he’s basically concluding it based entirely on speculation... he puts in some ‘maybe’s but the whole segment is accusing us and with definitive ‘have the people behind this, *like Nuland*, even considered the consequences?’... totally irresponsible as usual plus he concludes the one place who couldn’t have done it is Russia... they aren’t exactly unified over there so there is no way to rule them out... maybe it was a Sean Connery type in a Red October
Habebe Member	Wed Sep 28 02:38:54 "Why is Norway not on list of suspects? Now if anyone gains from this, it would be Norway and Ukraine." And Norway's Navy is basically submarines. But, let's go With racism. Norway is the guy your not concerned with leaving around your girl. I mean, y'all already cant meet demand for all of Europe.
jergul large member	Wed Sep 28 04:37:42 Habebe I could personally have done what happened from a trawl deck. Meeting demand is one thing, but meeting demand at what price level another. Cutting out two pipelines that could compete in the future should have a positive effect on ng pricing. Ukraine gains a hell of a lot of leverage by alternate gas routes being cut out. But mainly, cutting out NS1 and NS2 from consideration ensures Russia has to continue to supply ng to Ukraine through the winter season, or cut out most of Europe too if it wants to keep ng out of the hands of Ukraine. The main supply route is and remains a pipeline through Ukraine at 42 million M3 a day.
jergul large member	Wed Sep 28 04:38:42 "Who gains" is definitely Ukraine. The rather understated comments from Washington suggests it either suspects or knows Ukraine may be behind this.
jergul large member	Wed Sep 28 04:45:25 Well, Russia might gain eventually if it turns out knocking out pipelines is not actually an article 5 issue. Denmark does not seem to be signalling it feels this was an article 5 thing, so precedent would determine it would not be an article 5 for Norwegian or British pipelines either.
Seb Member	Wed Sep 28 05:09:00 I think in the end it is most likely Russia. It's timing with the opening of the new pipeline from Norway and the fact the Nordstreams are Russian and currently turned off is a good way to underline: 1. We know you think you are going to be ok this winter but look - we definitely won't help you with gas, and... 2. Look what else we *can* do if you keep arming Ukraine? It makes far less sense for Ukraine to do it and would shatter European unity in support for them. Why do it now? It makes far less sense for the US to do it - reckless, would shatter unity, and they don't really need to resort to a hard kill. Again, why now?
Seb Member	Wed Sep 28 05:14:07 jergul: I don't think precedent would hold up like that. E.g. Falklands was not article 5, Irish terrorism wasn't, 9/11 was. Two pipelines currently not being used would be different to pipeline that are meeting critical demand.
jergul large member	Wed Sep 28 05:49:02 Seb Of course you think it most likely Russia. Given its track record of attacking itself in your eyes. *eye-roll* It makes a ton of sense for Ukraine to do it. 1. It targets Russian infrastructure. Which is nice moral boost in a war that is otherwise rubbling Ukrainian infrastructure. 2. It gives Ukraine high leverage as it controls the main Russian gas export route that now no longer has alternatives. 3. It secures Ukrainian natural gas supplies come winter. Russia can now only cut off Ukraine if it is willing to cut off Europe including Hungary and Serbia (european gas markets are interconnected in that way). Shattering European unity is a risk only if the West is willing to expose Ukraine. Doubtful. It goes against our running narrative. There is no immediate critical demand for as long as ng storage is still in place. Article 5 works any way countries want it to work. But the narrative that "holy pipelines must be defended by Nato" is undermined by it not being article 5 worthy at this point.
jergul large member	Wed Sep 28 05:51:42 "Why now" Winter conditions make it harder to do.
Habebe Member	Wed Sep 28 05:51:43 "I could personally have done what happened from a trawl deck." Do we know yet what causednthe explosion? I was under the impression the explosions were the equivelant of several hundred/thousand pounds of TNT. My hunch would be that would be unlikely for someone to obtain that sort of explosive power easily undetected. Yes, Im sure it's possible, but remember this was done pretty rapidly in succession so odds are it was not two guys in a fishing boat. Hauling large amounts of materials Honestly, all things considered I'm a little skeptical it hasn't been watched better either. Are we to believe NATO innthe midst of the war havn't been keeping a better than average eye somehow on it? But absolutely, the Ukraine has strong motive. Does it have the ability to act independantly undetected by NATO? I don't think so.
Habebe Member	Wed Sep 28 05:55:53 Seb, "It makes far less sense for the US to do it - reckless, would shatter unity, and they don't really need to resort to a hard kill. Again, why now?" While I don't dismiss Russia having motives. The U.S. easily has The ability to never definitively get caught. They could catch Marines in uniform dropping explosives and people like Murder wouldn't buy any garbage they threw out as an excuse. And they are way better than that at hiding their presence. So getting caught is not a risk.
Habebe Member	Wed Sep 28 05:56:50 Even if they were find out hypothetically, who would call out the US on this?
Daemon Member	Wed Sep 28 06:06:12 I see you are all clueless just like me. But I really hope that we find out who it was, even if it was a close ally he must be punished.
Cherub Cow Member	Wed Sep 28 06:10:35 Given that total-state media is getting psychosis-managed people like tw to post state-promoted puppets such as Acyn in order to dismiss the U.S.'s possible involvement by simplifying it into a matter of hyper-focusing on Tucker Carlson — only desperately posting a right-wing source afterwards to pretend that there's not already diarrhea on the floor — I'm going to say that the attack was carried out by Biden himself, who was deployed from a SEAL Delivery Vehicle (SDV) from a Los Angeles-class attack submarine. Biden, being supremely competent and not at all addled with dementia or diaper rash, assumed command of SEAL Team 7, dismissed their officers, and told the crew, "Just stay the hell out of my way, man! Not a joke!" As they approached the pipeline, Biden then switched off his targeting computer and fired a double shot into the pipeline's thermal exhaust port. After a quick trip to Delaware to get more parabiosis rejuvenation treatments, Biden was back the following day for Attack 2: The Attackening. This time, while the SDV was preparing to deploy, Biden turned to a black SEAL and said, "I know about roaches! I got hairy legs that turn blonde in the sun! I love kids jumping on my lap.", clenched a Kabar in his teeth, recirculated the air lock, and swam to Nord Stream 1, cutting it with the Kabar until the knife failed, at which point he picked another spot on the line and bit through the pipe with his virile teeth. I'm 99% sure this is what happened. I reserve 1% for swamp gas from a weather balloon trapped in a thermal pocket and reflected the light from Venus.
Seb Member	Wed Sep 28 08:24:22 Habebe: But the US doesn't need to. Plus it really doesn't matter too much to the US if Germany wants to end sanctions. Jergul: I don't think Ukraine could do it without enough people knowing that Western govts could keep it hushed up. And again the bang for buck is very limited. If exposed, the impact is huge on Ukraine now and down the line. Germany isn't in a position to force peace, so the "end sanctions before we freeze" brigade don't seem material. But loss of goodwill will effect reconstruction aid and arms flows. Does it help Ukraine keep the lights on by forcing gas through Ukraine to Europe? Maybe. But again, with grid synch that happens anyway, and Russia can target off energy infra that is off the main pipeline so the impact seems marginal. The worst case scenario on the table with the pipeline intact is Germany caving and buying Russian gas. Gas and electricity can still flow to Ukraine from Europe, arms will still flow: Poland, UK, US and several others are not going to stop of Germany goes wobbly and Germany can't make them. Ending sanctions is bad, in that it helps Russia, but I don't see this as decisive for Ukraine, but plenty of downside risk. All in all it doesn't make much sense to me. The case for Russia makes marginally more sense given they are struggling to show credible points of escalation (and nobody but you believes the nukes) in a way that NATO takes seriously. Attacks on energy pipeline is a good repost on what appeared to be a veiled threat of cyber attacks on Russian infra from Biden. But requires Russia to have written off turning Nord stream back on as a viable leverage for anything useful, and the utility of the German "peace before icicles" brigade. Which they may plausibly have done.
Seb Member	Wed Sep 28 08:25:00 *so many people in the West knowing that the West govts couldn't keep it under cover
jergul large member	Wed Sep 28 08:52:30 Seb Why would lots of people in the West know who blew up the pipelines? Be it by Ukraine or someone else? Like I said, this is something I could have done with a rope, a decent echo-sounder, and a weighted case of explosives. Not exactly a high skilled endevour. Ad-hoc arguments tend to flail for lack of underlying logic. If the West would know if Ukraine did it, then the West knows who actually did it. Though frankly, I think the US does know or strongly suspects. It is being very muted and do have eyes in the sky consistent enough to gain timeline oversight of the explosion coordinates. Attacks by Russia make no sense. It gave Ukraine winter energy security.
TheChildren Member	Wed Sep 28 09:29:02 yea sure, russia would deliberately damage it own assets which they already own and spend billions and earn billions from, just 2 spite u. im sure they wuld resort to destroyin it own golden goose laying egg, when they can just turn off da tap with just a switch. idiots
Sam Adams Member	Wed Sep 28 09:30:24 Tucker gladly betrays his country so long as he can take a swipe at biden. Jesus what a fucking retard. Like AOC levels of retard.
habebe Member	Wed Sep 28 09:57:58 Daemon, Lets just blame it on polish nationalists. Seb, I think the target is the American voter. IF* that was the case. We need a reason to keep giving. We are losing our appetites for it. Jergul, "Though frankly, I think the US does know or strongly suspects. It is being very muted and do have eyes in the sky consistent enough to gain timeline oversight of the explosion coordinates." Yeah, there is no reasonable way they just were not keeping an eye on the pipeline. Maybe is corporate sabotage. Im skeptical of that only because of the risk. But the US has no risk. We could easily deflect such accusations as crazy and who would speak against us? Europe? The people more dependent on our LNG/energy/military etc? Why? Best not bite the hand feeding you.
jergul large member	Wed Sep 28 10:00:06 habebe More the ability to reconstruct what happened than to have had real time monitoring.
habebe Member	Wed Sep 28 10:08:10 http://twi...?t=-q4A1gcutD-EYlmAMgn2eg&s=19 The most detail Ive found yet. Looks interesting.
Seb Member	Wed Sep 28 10:09:41 jergul: Ukraine has no subs, so would be from a surface ship. I do not doubt you could do it from your trawler - what I am doubting is you would not either be detected before or definitely after by many security agencies across multiple countries in setting up the logistics. For a state actor, on the other hand, that I think means you need one or more of: a. Subs b. If from surface, logistics and tradecraft in running maritime special operations (and obviously that is much easier if local if you are a state operator, running this all undercover in foreign territory undetected is another layer of complexity) In the end I suspect that it actually is quite hard for a state actor to do this in a way that is not traceable by multiple sources. Does Ukraine have a history of running unflagged special ops naval missions well outside of its own area? It seems implausible. I think if they did this - especially with a crate of explosives off the back of a trawler - they would be found out by the ensuring counter-terrorist/intelligence operation of several countries quite quickly. Probably not beyond the ability of law enforcement agencies and amateur sleuths too. I think it needs to be either a VERY capable major power or a local (as in black sea based state actor) if you want to avoid this having a high chance of ending up in the public domain. None of the theories look good to me - Russia marginally seems the best for the reasons above. And you yourself have claimed Russia has written off Europe as an energy market, so what does blowing up some infrastructure as a veiled threat for attacks on other pipelines matter? Ukraine seems beyond reckless to me. Upside seems highly limited, downside seems huge for them. I'm more inclined to think Poland than Ukraine - they have Baltic coastline, they are more capable (e.g. subs, or more accurately, a sub), they are strongly pushing the fuel blockade, they have much lower downside than Ukraine if discovered in that it will generate blowback but unlike Ukraine they won't find arms shipments or reconstruction aid impacted, and their govt is on the reckless side. And while the things Ukraine needs to continue the war are not going to be materially affected by Germany caving and breaking sanctions regime, the long term German energy dependency on Russia is an ongoing security risk for Poland. So the upside is better for Poland hypothetically. With both nordstream pipes out (especially if beyond repair due to corrosion due to inability to coordinate immediate repair work) means they will likely not be replaced. And there's always greater coal use, of which Poland has a fair amount and a govt not that keen on net zero. Honestly though, none of the theories seem very good to me. So there is probably missing context.
Seb Member	Wed Sep 28 10:18:45 jergul: "Though frankly, I think the US does know or strongly suspects. It is being very muted and do have eyes in the sky consistent enough to gain timeline oversight of the explosion coordinates." So do many countries, and many commercial players now though. Plus there is radar and transponder tracking etc. The baltic ain't that big. which is why I think if it was "disgruntled fisherman with a crate of ammonium nitrate" or Ukrainians engaging in a special operations way outside their area - they'd probably be caught after the fact by more than just the Americans. The Ukranians need to get the men (and do they really have any?) and explosives from Ukraine to the Baltic, into boats, off to the pipelines, drop the stuff, and get back (even more implausibly, source locally)- in an area that is high alert right now and might mistake them for Russians and interdict them. Habebe: "But the US has no risk." I think it probably does - you regularly suffer information leaks. If you did it, I think the chinese would know, then Europe would know, and then you would probably face a lot of problems down the line at other points when looking for cooperation. You may think that is unnecessary, the present administration does not. It thinks alliances are important and helpful.
Seb Member	Wed Sep 28 10:19:45 *(as in black sea based state actor) I meant baltic of course. Did an accidental Truss.
habebe Member	Wed Sep 28 10:29:29 There is always Klaus, the motivation is there. He has the means. Seb, Again, This is all speculation, but... "Does Ukraine have a history of running unflagged special ops naval missions well outside of its own area? It seems implausible." http://www...r-mines-with-underwater-drones Side-by-side with comrades from the US Navy, experts from the Diving & Threat Exploitation Group are teaching Ukrainians how to operate the devices, which search large areas of seabed for mines and unexploded ordnance without putting the operators in harm’s way. The UK is giving six of the underwater drones to Ukraine and training its personnel here in Britain to use them so they can clear their coastline of mines when they return to their homeland. The lightweight autonomous vehicle is designed for use in shallow coastal environments, operating effectively at depths of up to 100 metres to detect, locate and identify mines using an array of sensors, so the Ukrainian Navy can destroy them. Dated August 26th.
habebe Member	Wed Sep 28 10:38:24 http://sfn...rch-and-testing-new-technology BALTIC SEA – A significant focus of BALTOPS every year is the demonstration of NATO mine hunting capabilities, and this year the U.S. Navy continues to use the exercise as an opportunity to test emerging technology. In support of BALTOPS, U.S. Navy Sixth Fleet partnered with U.S. Navy research and warfare centers to bring the latest advancements in Unmanned Underwater Vehicle (UUV) mine hunting technology to the Baltic Sea to demonstrate the vehicle’s effectiveness in operational scenarios. -------- ****€_Experimentation was conducted off the coast of Bornholm, Denmark****, with participants from Naval Information Warfare Center (NIWC) Pacific, Naval Undersea Warfare Center (NUWC) Newport, and Mine Warfare Readiness and Effectiveness Measuring (MIREM) -- all under the direction of U.S. Sixth Fleet Task Force 68.
jergul large member	Wed Sep 28 11:46:44 Seb Don't just brainstorm and spitball without critical thought. It is tiresome and unhygenic to deal with salivaladen paper. The simplest way to do it would be to rig a 50-footer with trawling gear, place explosive packages and detonate on a signal. A bit overkill, but an industrial drum winch makes everything easier. Kabebe (why not with a K :D) Everyone knows the US has the capability even without knowing the specifics. But why? "The group looked at around 20 million instances of fishing vessels turning off their Automatic Identification System (AIS) transponders" This is done habitually. Fishing locations are commercial secrets quite often. Ukraine is one of the great fishing and seafaring nations. People tend to forget that. Now how the logistics worked? Most likely a Polish-Ukrainian secret service cooperation. I will give that uhm 80% probability of this is what happened. As for timing. Well, it is just after a Polish-Norwegian pipeline went into operation.
jergul large member	Wed Sep 28 11:47:49 Seb Don't just brainstorm and spitball without critical thought. It is tiresome and unhygenic to deal with salivaladen paper. The simplest way to do it would be to rig a 50-footer with trawling gear, place explosive packages and detonate on a signal. A bit overkill, but an industrial drum winch makes everything easier. "The group looked at around 20 million instances of fishing vessels turning off their Automatic Identification System (AIS) transponders" This is done habitually. Fishing locations are commercial secrets quite often. Ukraine is one of the great fishing and seafaring nations. People tend to forget that. Kabebe (why not with a K :D) Everyone knows the US has the capability even without knowing the specifics. But why? Now how the logistics worked? Most likely a Polish-Ukrainian secret service cooperation. I will give that uhm 80% probability of this is what happened. As for timing. Well, it is just after a Polish-Norwegian pipeline went into operation.
jergul large member	Wed Sep 28 11:48:27 And my double posts I have to keep. lest waah, abuse is mentioned :D.
jergul large member	Wed Sep 28 11:49:36 God dammit Seb Don't just brainstorm and spitball without critical thought. It is tiresome and unhygenic to deal with salivaladen paper. The simplest way to do it would be to rig a 50-footer with trawling gear, place explosive packages and detonate on a signal. A bit overkill, but an industrial drum winch makes everything easier. "The group looked at around 20 million instances of fishing vessels turning off their Automatic Identification System (AIS) transponders" This is done habitually. Fishing locations are commercial secrets quite often. Ukraine is one of the great fishing and seafaring nations. People tend to forget that. Now how the logistics worked? Most likely a Polish-Ukrainian secret service cooperation. I will give that uhm 80% probability of this is what happened. As for timing. Well, it is just after a Polish-Norwegian pipeline went into operation. Kabebe (why not with a K :D) Everyone knows the US has the capability even without knowing the specifics. But why?
Paramount Member	Wed Sep 28 11:50:12 Seb ”But the US doesn't need to. Plus it really doesn't matter too much to the US if Germany wants to end sanctions.” Russia doesn’t need to. They could just stop the gas by pressing a button. Of course it matters to the US. The US goal is to weaken and destroy Russia. With no European sanctions it won’t happen. The US has also been very hostile to Nord Stream for a long time. Before February 2022. In 2021 for an example, US warplanes and warships harrassed Nord Stream and its personell. http://www...stream2-security-idUSKBN2BO5YU It is obvious that it was the US who planted explosives at the pipelines and then detonated it.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Wed Sep 28 11:52:27 CC to me:"...only desperately posting a right-wing source afterwards to pretend that there's not already diarrhea on the floor..." you are terrible at understanding my motives... i posted the Acyn clip (which is not misleadingly clipped at all) to show Tucker is garbage i found the more complete clip (not caring at all that it was right-wing source who posted it as i only care about the video clip) which shows Tucker being garbage for several more minutes to show Tucker is garbage Tucker is garbage
Paramount Member	Wed Sep 28 12:03:29 This is also how the US roll. They’re a mafia. Gangsters. They threaten, harrass, blackmail, lie, cheat, kill, invade, bomb. Etc.
Paramount Member	Wed Sep 28 12:04:54 They are also pretty confident that there won’t be any consequences for them *if* they get caught.
Seb Member	Wed Sep 28 13:00:41 Ah, jergul is still seething that no-one believes his nuclear strategy is credible. It's not spitballing - you are talking about how it could be done - which yes, is easy. But where are you going to get 300kg dynamite equivalent without being detected as a civilian? How are you going to get your boat into position - you are going to have to turn off your transponder, but will still show up on radar - so after the fact you can be traced back etc. So we quickly see how you get to the point that for it *not* to be trivially traced back, you probably need to be a state actor on the baltic coast or a significant naval power.
	show deleted posts