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Utopia Talk / Politics / CNN: Maybe we should nuke Russia
Habebe
Member
Tue Oct 04 17:22:53
http://twi...?t=RxfPXaPqL5r9AJa84x4V_Q&s=19

The drums beat on.

For perspective, we are now discussing nuclear strikes and nuclear displays ***_over the eastern 20% of the Ukraine.***

This is insane.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Tue Oct 04 18:42:16
if you watch the clip, it's about contingency plans if Russia starts using nukes

& why do you have a problem with this but not Tucker saying the only option -now- (not if nukes used) is total war between US & Russia
Habebe
Member
Tue Oct 04 19:00:24
Tucker is supporting De-escelation.

Not supporting Nuclear war.
Habebe
Member
Tue Oct 04 19:04:33
And lets be clear, it's not even all of the Ukraine.

Crimea is Russian now, give them the areas that are basically Russian anyway.

Have Russia pay some form of reparations to rebuild, maybe a share of petrol sales, IDK.

Yadda yadda, shake hands.

Throw in some sort of means of collateral as insurance against future Russian aggression.

Not so easy, but it's a start.
murder
Member
Tue Oct 04 19:21:36

"Crimea is Russian now, give them the areas that are basically Russian anyway."

Sure thing. All Russia has to do is demilitarize and surrender all it's nuclear weapons and agree to international monitoring to make sure they stay disarmed and are never again a threat to it's neighbors. Also any portion of Russia that wants independence gets it.

Now THAT is a deal worth making.

kargen
Member
Tue Oct 04 19:26:21
Ukraine is going to be wary of any deal. They were fucked hard when they agreed to the NPT in 1994. Took several years for the fucking to happen but it did happen.
So why trust the same countries (Russia and USA) that already disregarded an earlier agreement?

Maybe Ukraine could ask for a nuclear arsenal back in return for giving up the contested area?
murder
Member
Tue Oct 04 19:31:26

That doesn't work. Russia is being rewarded for its aggression without having to give anything up. If we're going to do that then we need to give nukes to ALL of Russia's neighbors so that they are safe from invasion too.

Then we could make our money back by cutting most of our contributions to NATO.

Habebe
Member
Tue Oct 04 19:51:24
Of course murders aim is to punish Russia at all costs, even nuclear war.
murder
Member
Tue Oct 04 20:00:46

Punish them how? They get that sweet sweet Ukrainian territory and a reduced US presence in Europe. That sounds like a great deal for them.

Sam Adams
Member
Tue Oct 04 21:06:37
"This is insane."

It is insane that russia has pushed the world to this. But given their threats, their lies, and their complete lack of honor, it is very reasonable to talk about nuking russia right now.
Habebe
Member
Tue Oct 04 21:24:20
Sam, Over the Donbas?!

Its not even a particularly lucrative piece of land.

Its less valuable than Norway or Louisiana.

We are discussing Nuclear war over eastern Ukraine's Appalachia.
Sam Adams
Member
Tue Oct 04 22:02:36
The donbas is indeed relatively worthless. But tyrants must be stopped. If we didnt draw a line here, putin and his honorless minions would keep marching.

The lessons of hitler in late 30s have been learned. The mistake of appeasement will not be repeated.
kargen
Member
Tue Oct 04 22:06:48
"If we're going to do that then we need to give nukes to ALL of Russia's neighbors so that they are safe from invasion too."

Did the other nations sign an accord with Russia, US and others before giving up their nukes? If not then no we don't need to give them a damn thing.

We need to honor our past agreements and we need to quit making these kinds of agreements we can't or won't commit to.
Habebe
Member
Tue Oct 04 23:31:03
"The donbas is indeed relatively worthless. But tyrants must be stopped. If we didnt draw a line here, putin and his honorless minions would keep marching."

Would they? They've done pretty shitty, I think he would more likely take what he can get and not lose face, and not plan any new excursions any time soon.

We can then work to erode is sway in ways that are less likely to turn us into ashes.

"The lessons of hitler in late 30s have been learned. The mistake of appeasement will not be repeated."

And what of the lessons of WW1, when what should have been a minor conflict embroiled the world.

Plus these narratives make no sense.

Nazis were threatening because they were effective on the battlefield, these guys can't seem to conquer eastern Ukraine.

They can't both be bumbling fools and so terrifyingly powerful we must stop their March because they will revive the USSR.
earthpig
GTFO HOer
Wed Oct 05 02:15:43
Oh look Habebe is once again not acting in good faith and is using whimsical fuzzy goalposts.

I am shocked!
Habebe
Member
Wed Oct 05 02:21:58
EP, What fuzzy goal post?
earthpig
GTFO HOer
Wed Oct 05 03:10:27
Intentionally failing to recognize a fuzzy whimsical goalpost, in this case.
Habebe
Member
Wed Oct 05 04:03:28
Her ancestors conquered the world.

http://youtu.be/FYYp9QQif_8
murder
Member
Wed Oct 05 05:40:55

"We need to honor our past agreements and we need to quit making these kinds of agreements we can't or won't commit to."

If we're honoring our past agreements then Ukraine has to be made whole ... as in every square inch.

murder
Member
Wed Oct 05 05:46:31

"Would they? They've done pretty shitty, I think he would more likely take what he can get and not lose face, and not plan any new excursions any time soon."

What he can get and not lose face is Russia's actual borders being respected and us not helping Ukraine run them right out of the Black Sea area altogether.


"Nazis were threatening because they were effective on the battlefield, these guys can't seem to conquer eastern Ukraine."

The Nazis were threatening long before they ever invaded anyone.


"They can't both be bumbling fools and so terrifyingly powerful we must stop their March because they will revive the USSR."

Really? Where is Nazi Germany today? It seems like you can be both a massive threat and bumbling fools.

murder
Member
Wed Oct 05 05:53:12

"The lessons of hitler in late 30s have been learned. The mistake of appeasement will not be repeated."

Yes, but this doesn't even have to be about history. This is child rearing 101. If you reward bad behavior you are going to get more and more of it.

Putin must not be allowed to win in any way shape or form or we are just inviting more of the same from him and others around the world.

People forget that the Munich Agreement that gifted Sudetenland to the Nazis led to Poland and Hungary making similar demands.

Sam Adams
Member
Wed Oct 05 09:25:07
"these guys can't seem to conquer eastern Ukraine."

Because, in part, because we are giving ukraine a buttload of weapons.
Habebe
Member
Wed Oct 05 14:20:54
I guess the question is

How much of it is we're doing well, US weapons/logistics/strategy +Ukrainian soldiering.

Vs how much Russia been fucking up?

Clearly Russia wasn't as prepared as it thought. Their logistics seem like shit.
Sam Adams
Member
Wed Oct 05 15:04:04
"How much of it is we're doing well, US weapons/logistics/strategy +Ukrainian soldiering.

Vs how much Russia been fucking up?"

A bit of all. Ukrainian morale is better than expected, we have been giving them some fun toys and very valuable intel, and russians suck even more than we thought they did.

A violent dishonorable people with a shitty army and nukes is still very dangerous though, and it must be made very clear to these wanabe tyrants that their violent actions will be met with much more and much better violence from us if they cross our lines.
earthpig
GTFO HOer
Wed Oct 05 16:08:30
"EP, What fuzzy goal post?"

Fully acknowledging a range of options is not the same as "calling for" something.

Suppose a dog bites my kid, I render aid and take care of said kid. From there, I have a range of options to address the transgressions, from doing nothing, to extrajudicially killing the dog's owner as well as the dog. The sensible thing is probably somewhere in the middle, it goes without saying.

You: "EP calls for murder of dog owner!"
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