Utopia Talk / Politics / Ukraine attacks Russian base

Rugian Member	Mon Dec 26 07:50:06 Three Russian soldiers dead after Ukrainian drone attack, Moscow says Defence ministry says drone was shot down on approach to Engels airbase but falling debris killed three http://www...inian-drone-attack-moscow-says
Rugian Member	Mon Dec 26 07:51:08 Wasn't Russia supposed to be fully mobilized by now? If so, I remain wholly underwhelmed by their military capabilities.
Paramount Member	Mon Dec 26 08:03:05 I don’t know how this works but maybe those air defense systems are not optimal to shoot down drones with. Maybe they need a better drone defense system. Specialized anti-drone weapons!
jergul large member	Mon Dec 26 09:00:17 Para That is how drones and missiles work. They go up in the air, then come down from the air. Not really a drone. A repurposed Soviet surveillance missile. They are quite big, so have a lot of kinetic energy unless blown up in the air. Ruggy Not even close to fully mobilized.
jergul large member	Mon Dec 26 09:02:46 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-141
Rugian Member	Mon Dec 26 09:48:36 Jergul You are more than welcome to educate us on when 1) what year Russia will be fully mobilized and 2) what year they stop sucking in Ukraine.
jergul large member	Mon Dec 26 10:21:48 1. It will never fully mobilize. 2. 2022. You forget, or perhaps never knew, that Russia has been heavily outnumbered in Ukraine since the middle of March when Ukraine's mobilization gave it superior numbers. The Kherson and Kharkiv retreats were really well done. The frontline is now short enough for Ukrainian numerical superiority not to matter much.
Rugian Member	Mon Dec 26 10:53:18 Oh jergul. So when does Kiev fall again?
jergul large member	Mon Dec 26 11:37:27 Never. Or perhaps we should say the day after the US captures Ho Chi Min City. You are making a lot of hay out of Russia's attempted coup de main. It did not work out, so the conflict changed character.
Rugian Member	Mon Dec 26 11:50:12 When did we ever try to invade North Vietnam? A better example would be Iraq. It took us all of...20 days to capture Baghdad. How many days has Russia been flailing in Ukraine so far? 306?
Pillz Member	Mon Dec 26 11:55:04 Try harder rugian
murder Member	Mon Dec 26 12:32:28 "I don’t know how this works but maybe those air defense systems are not optimal to shoot down drones with. Maybe they need a better drone defense system. Specialized anti-drone weapons!" I'll explain it to you. Russia is a massive country with a limited defense budget. There are gaps in coverage all over the place. In 1987 some kid landed a Cessna in Red Square smack in the center of fucking Moscow. The same for the US btw, and we have a much larger defense budget.
jergul large member	Mon Dec 26 17:18:42 A better example is the Korean war. You went in thinking it was one thing and got into huge trouble as it turned out to be something else, so you adapted. Without using nukes even, though McArthur really wanted to. He lost his job over it.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Dec 26 22:36:04 The US army that crushed iraq isnt nearly the same as the us army that struggled in vietnam.
jergul large member	Tue Dec 27 05:08:24 There is no real analogue to Iraq. Night vision + precision weapons made their true combat debut in 1992. Rods from the gods variants would be my best guess at the next similar paradigm shift.
murder Member	Tue Dec 27 06:37:41 "Rods from the gods variants would be my best guess at the next similar paradigm shift." "Rods from God" are crap. Just another hyped up fantasy weapon that would be more trouble than it is worth.
jergul large member	Tue Dec 27 09:26:43 Murder I am just using it as an image. There is zero point in prepositioning kinetics in orbit. Any heavy lift rocket can slap up a dozen or so any time that 21 Mach of kinetic energy on impact is desired.
murder Member	Tue Dec 27 10:00:27 I don't think they can maintain that speed through the atmosphere all the way to the target without propulsion. In fact I'm pretty sure it would lose most of that energy. And targeting is a serious problem since the plasma that forms around it would disrupt any guidance.
Rugian Member	Tue Dec 27 10:06:22 Jergul No need to get all defensive. I'm not looking to humiliate anyone here. All I want is for you to admit that you've been completely wrong your entire life in regards to Russia's military capabilities and competence, proclaim that the US is indisputably its superior on the battlefield, and apologize to UP for all the years spent trying to convince us that Russian miltech doesn't suck. No biggie.
Rugian Member	Tue Dec 27 10:09:21 I know I'm making fun here, but in all sincerity I know just how emotionally devastating it can be when you realize your entire worldview is based on a lie. We do after all live in a world where Donald Trump won fewer than 45 states in 2020. So I do feel your pain over this.
jergul large member	Tue Dec 27 11:40:59 Murder That would be incorrect. Ruggy That is your take on the conflict virtually without airpower and where most missiles are being shot down by soviet era weapons, that my rofl@subsonic missiles is wrong? Rofl. Cut down on the booze buddy. It is making you stupid.
Rugian Member	Tue Dec 27 12:23:10 Jergul Russian military leadership, strategies, tactics, technology, equipment, training, logistics, and force projection have all *definitively* been proven to be incompetent and/or inferior. It took the US a matter of days to rape an entire country into oblivion. Russia has been at this for almost a full year now, and they have shockingly little to show for it (outside of a growing body count and collapsing economy of course). Forget occupying Kiev. They can barely bomb Kiev at this point. In retrospect, its laughable that we ever considered the Russians to be capable of being a superpower. No one will ever take their military capabilities seriously again.
jergul large member	Tue Dec 27 13:30:52 Ruggy It took the US 11 years to take down Iraq. It is incidentally Soviet technology (literally) that is kept Ukraine in the game. Conventional war is over as soon as strategic bombers can drop gravity bombs with impunity. Layered Soviet air defences turned out to be the exact nightmare I have always said they would be. #rofl@subsonicmissiles
jergul large member	Tue Dec 27 13:50:54 I had no idea what Russia was doing when it invaded. In retrospect, the BTG (Battalion Tactical Groups) were worthless. They were placeholder units anyway while Russia grinded to get Brigade sized units of that type up and running. Deployed understrength and understrengthed even at full strength, they performed poorly versus both adhoc and organized resistance. Rush the capzones tactics might have worked without Western support, but it was a gamble that Western support would not materialize in volumes enough to matter before it was too late. So now, Russia has reverted to what it knews. Brute strength and large scale units. It should have done that from the start. It would have saved me the confusion of wtf are they trying to do? I dont think this is close to over. The conflict's natural boundary given current technology follows the dnipro river. I dont really think either party is able to reliably trace logistics at volume across that barrier once things get going in earnest.
Pillz Member	Tue Dec 27 14:30:43 Jergul is the most gullible retard on up wow
jergul large member	Tue Dec 27 14:43:39 Pillz What point in particular were you addressing?
Paramount Member	Tue Dec 27 14:57:18 ” I had no idea what Russia was doing when it invaded.” I had a few ideas. ” the confusion of wtf are they trying to do? ” They thought that once Russia initiated the military operation that Ukraine would realize that Russia is serious and would then want to honor the Minsk agreement. They thought that they would only need to crush the bulk of the Ukrainian army (which they did) and then Ukraine would be willing to accept Russias terms and honor the Minsk agreement. But that did not happen. Russia thought wrong and realized this sometime during the summer that Ukraine is not going to fold. So then Putin appointed a new General with a new strategy. At the start, Russia could have done to Ukraine what the US and Britain did to Iraq in the beginning: Go all in and bomb everything including water treatment plant and the electricity grid. But Russia did not want to harm or kill civilians. Ukrainians are Slavic people, like Russians. They are brothers. But Zelenskyj is not allowed to surrender by the US and the UK. So the strategy had to change. Russia had to prepare for a full scale invasion. Russia also had to start to accept colateral damage among Ukrainians, just as the US/UK accepted colateral damage among Iraqis from day one. And like what the US/UK did in Iraq, Russia has now started to bomb the electrical grid in Ukraine. It wasn't a war crime when the US/UK did it to Iraq or when NATO did it to Serbia, so how can it be it now when Russia is doing it in Ukraine. Russia is only making sure that Ukrainian army won't have access to electricity and fuel. If civilians comes to harm it is unfortunate but it is colateral damage.
jergul large member	Tue Dec 27 15:07:28 Para Russia could not deindustrialize Ukraine with conventional airpower because of Soviet era (literally) layered air defences. Fixed wing and rotary aircraft operations are to this day limited to low level shoot and scoot tactics.
murder Member	Tue Dec 27 20:44:32 "That would be incorrect." Incorrect how?
habebe Member	Tue Dec 27 23:00:46 I mean, it's now the dead of winter.The Ukraine seems to be taking it better than I expected. I suppose this has cleared out alot of Russia's ability to invade most anywhere ele for a while.I still think it was way to damn expensive, but I guess its still wearing down the Russians. I just wish to hurry up and end it already.
murder Member	Wed Dec 28 07:10:32 We could end it in a matter of days but Joe Biden is afraid of World War 3 ... as if he had anything left to live for.
jergul large member	Wed Dec 28 07:17:45 Murder Lose about 20% of energy. 100 km of atmosphere with increasing density is simply not enough to slow down aerodynamic projectiles very much. Accuracy (CEP) is down to 10s of meters for mordern MIRVs.
murder Member	Wed Dec 28 08:02:40 "Lose about 20% of energy." If that was even remotely true we'd already be doing it. The only reason to not do it is that the effect is either not possible or it isn't a sufficient improvement over existing weapons to justify the cost. We're dropping sawed off 203mm artillery barrels loaded with explosives from fighters and bombers with limited success, so I'm going to have to assume that better options are not currently available. I've seen estimates as low as mach 5 on impact.
jergul large member	Wed Dec 28 09:27:59 Murder Already doing it against who and why? Bang for buck (smertweapons) Guided gravity bombs. Guided arty rounds Guided ballistic rockets Guided suicide drones Guided ballistic missiles (Iskander type) Guided cruise missiles ========= (Guided ballistic missiles (Iskander type)) Guided hypersonic missiles Guided MIRVs (rod from gods) Below dash are things that are hard to intercept by layered air defences. MIRVs are hideously expensive. Cheaper and more cost efficient to do saturation attacks with lower grade weapons...up to a point.
jergul large member	Wed Dec 28 09:31:19 You can get Mach 5 if you want to. A MIRV could prolly survive that kind of loss of acceleration. All down to aerodynamics and re-entry speed.
jergul large member	Wed Dec 28 09:40:27 And angle of course :).
murder Member	Wed Dec 28 16:44:27 Here's a gentleman that has no use for half measures. http://the...17/05/IAJ-8-2-2017-pg62-68.pdf
jergul large member	Wed Dec 28 18:06:38 That is you agreeing with me, right?
murder Member	Wed Dec 28 18:55:38 No, that's me saying look at this guy talking about slamming 370,000 lbs tungsten rods into the earth at mach 50.
Paramount Member	Fri Dec 30 16:48:23 Zelenskyjs wife went shopping in Paris. She apparently spent 40k Euros in a store in Paris. http://youtube.com/shorts/AqDSZ0hRsJc If true, she seems to live in another world. Her people are being killed, millions has fled their homes, they have no electricity, etc, but she goes to Paris and buy Gucci bags and dresses for 40k? Lol Those 40,000 … she could have donated them to the armed forces instead. They could have bought bullets. But maybe since Ukraine has already got... is it 100 billion dollars? So maybe she doesn’t need to help her people and so she can buy Gucci bags instead. If its her money it should be okay. But if she took money from the aid packages, that would not be okay. But maybe no one will be missing the 40k. In an ocean of 100 billions no one would notice if 40k disapeared.
Interesting facts Member	Fri Dec 30 17:34:53 http://www...40000-shopping-spree-in-paris/ Candace Owens Spreads Baseless Claim Zelensky’s Wife Went on $40,000 Shopping Spree in Paris
Paramount Member	Fri Dec 30 17:49:20 The reports on her shopping spree seems to originate from French social media. It supposedly stem from a salesclerk from the store where Zelenskyjs wife was shopping and it spread on french social media and then it was picked up by Candace Owens in America. http://twi...?s=61&t=hd8ZCv5JT2oqDw0d8BAJcA
Interesting Facts Member	Sat Dec 31 05:55:08 Paramount: let's see which information is missing from the tweet -the name of the employee is not given -the name of the store is not given -there are no details about what she has bought The image in the tweet has nothing do to with the claim, as it does not even mention any kind of shopping. Now let's take a look at the account who made the claim: if you look into his timeline then you will see that it is full of lies about various topics, for example Covid-19. Why should any sane person believe his claim?
jergul large member	Sat Dec 31 06:18:05 40k is not really that much money when shopping in Paris would be the only reason to think it true if indeed the first lady was shopping in Paris.
Pillz Member	Sat Dec 31 10:25:31 Dozens of rockets again strike Kiev and other cities. Ukrainian IFV/Tank losses reportedly passed 7300 this week. 16/18 French artillery need repairs. Cool I guess Tactical situation looking very negative for AFU. Russians are reportedly striking at AFU in Kharkiv more often than repelling minor assaults now. AFU being hit all along the line. Also, Russian offensives in the Donetsk area are continuing to grind on, successfully.
obaminated Member	Sat Dec 31 11:13:40 I really doubt Ukraine lost 7300 tanks in a week. Much less this entire war, oh I mean special operation.
Pillz Member	Sat Dec 31 11:24:31 It was actually 7100 this week, 200 the 8 months prior.
Paramount Member	Sat Dec 31 11:37:55 The US can just give an additional $100 billion in aid to Ukraine so they can have new tanks and win. Russias attempts are futile. Might as well give up!
jergul large member	Sat Dec 31 11:45:29 The problem with support now is mostly brandname protection. Bradleys could be sent, but after 10 or so are destroyed, we may start to question the invincibility of US armor.
obaminated Member	Sat Dec 31 13:39:26 I'm sure it's not a desperate pr campaign by Russia trying to take attention away from the reports about putin dying of cancer.
Paramount Member	Sun Jan 01 15:25:27 According to the american ISW, Russia is running out of ammo again. So if we are to believe the Brits and da Yanks, Russia has been running out of ammo since february 2022 when the conflict started. How believable is this? Does anyone believe this? Russia has mobilized and is about to start a large offensive soon. They would not do that if they don’t have ammo. Lol More likely, Russia has run out of targets, so they are not shooting as much artillery rounds right now compared to earlier.
murder Member	Sun Jan 01 17:05:01 "The problem with support now is mostly brandname protection. Bradleys could be sent, but after 10 or so are destroyed, we may start to question the invincibility of US armor." Bradley's aren't that armored, and it's not like Abrams tanks haven't been destroyed.
jergul large member	Mon Jan 02 06:55:22 I was not saying it an unsurrmountable barrier, but photo-optics do matter.
Paramount Member	Mon Jan 02 07:30:33 ” but after 10 or so are destroyed, we may start to question the invincibility of US armor." ” But they can just say that it was Russian tanks and that it was Ukraine who,destroyed them. They could also add that Russia has run out of ammo and is a weak country and that Putin fell down the stairs and shat himself. Then I think that the americans would understand that Ukraine is winning, they only need more money and more tanks.
Pillz Member	Mon Jan 02 14:22:45 The 63 soldiers killed in the recent Ukrainian attack have made western news. Deadliest attack in months. Articles are paid walled. But it's amusing that Ukraine has suffering such losses almost daily.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Jan 02 15:11:41 Pillz is claiming many more kills than the size of the ukrainian army, jergul is claiming that bradlies are the top of the line of american armor and mountme is believing candace owens. Lol. I see the axis of dumb hasnt become any more educated.
Pillz Member	Mon Jan 02 15:48:12 100k dead hohols in 8 months - the EU
jergul large member	Mon Jan 02 16:30:15 Lern 2 reed sammy.
asdasdfasdfasdfasdfa Member	Mon Jan 02 23:00:07 "The 63 soldiers killed in the recent Ukrainian attack" More than 400
jergul large member	Tue Jan 03 06:02:25 Prolly something around the Beirut barrack bombing death toll in 1983. Russian bloggers are pointing out the 63 does not include people not yet recovered.
Seb Member	Tue Jan 03 08:11:47 It was apparently also an artillery ammunition stockpile (dumb to co-locate perhaps) hence there is little left. The damage looks more extensive - one report has that only a bit of wall is left standing.
Seb Member	Tue Jan 03 08:15:45 *than the Beirut barracks. Only just realised I'm looking at the photo of the French barracks which was taller and the bomb went off some way from the building, rather than the one that hit the marine barracks.
LazyCommunist Member	Tue Jan 03 09:56:28 Russia has a much bigger population than Ukraine, so it does not matter if we lose twice the soldiers, we will win nevertheless and take what belongs to us anyway! You know: life is grossly overrated. Now we have a dream and it will outlast us. Life is worth living only for what you're willing to die for! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QYavj3EhN4
Sam Adams Member	Tue Jan 03 11:33:49 The "life is overrated" phase of russian propaganda. The war effort must be going great. Lol@pillz.
Paramount Member	Tue Jan 03 12:58:41 U.S. Senator Graham like that every Ukrainian will die http://twi...?s=61&t=Jid4VPe2qLzX980ZB9QrGQ
Sam Adams Member	Tue Jan 03 16:27:17 Lol at least 100 russians died. Apperently they all were downloading porn, mostly gay porn, on their phones and the ukes correctly inferred that it was a hive of russians.
jergul large member	Tue Jan 03 17:19:22 Russian MOD is up to 89.
Paramount Member	Fri Jan 06 03:49:27 Christmas ceasefire is on. Ukraine dismissed it and Joe Biden said that the reason for the ceasefire is not because Putin wants to celebrate Christmas but because Putin needs oxygen. Biden, Ukraine, the American and British contractors, the advisors and the mercanaries wanted a ceasefire on december 25th so they could celebrate Western Christmas with Santa Claud and all that. But that didn’t happen, so now they are like: ”Meh, we are not going to celebrate Christmas now, with Father Frost. Our Christmas was already destroyed so now we are going to destroy yours!!”
Daemon Member	Fri Jan 06 05:48:45 France and USA have decided to sent heavier vehicles to the Ukraine and now Germany will send the old Marder to Ukraine. I have no idea how useful they will be, but after the old Gepard AA system has more than proven its value by shooting down cruise missiles and lots of drones, I hope for another very good surprise. http://en....er_(infantry_fighting_vehicle) The Schützenpanzer Marder 1 is a German infantry fighting vehicle designed for use with the West German Panzergrenadiere units, mechanized infantry specialized for IFV combat. It has been operated by the German Army as the main Panzergrenadiere IFV from 1970s through to the present day. Developed as part of the rebuilding of West Germany's armoured fighting vehicle industry, the Marder has proven to be a successful and solid infantry fighting vehicle design.
Pillz Member	Fri Jan 06 07:23:20 Lol
Daemon Member	Fri Jan 06 07:33:45 You're still laughing about your stupidity in believing your daily reports about destroyed Himars systems?
Paramount Member	Fri Jan 06 08:08:20 If its built as good as a Leica then maybe it will be useful.
murder Member	Fri Jan 06 10:41:25 "France and USA have decided to sent heavier vehicles to the Ukraine and now Germany will send the old Marder to Ukraine. I have no idea how useful they will be, but after the old Gepard AA system has more than proven its value by shooting down cruise missiles and lots of drones, I hope for another very good surprise." Compared to the Soviet era crap that Ukraine has been flooded with, I'm sure Ukraine will greatly appreciate them and make good use of them.
Paramount Member	Fri Jan 06 11:50:43 There are reports on that Ukraine has started to press teenagers into service. Kids as young as 14, 15, 16 or thereabout. Maybe Ukraine will send kids to Germany where the Germans will teach them how to use the Marder?
Daemon Member	Fri Jan 06 12:25:31 "There are reports" = "I'm a victim of Russian propaganda and really like to be an idiot"
Sam Adams Member	Fri Jan 06 13:15:00 Daemon is correct
Paramount Member	Fri Jan 06 13:22:23 I’m just saying that there are reports. Doesn’t have to be true. But there are supposedly photos and videos of it on websites. But I haven’t seen it. There are also reports that Joe Biden is wearing diapers. Doesn’t have to be true either. Not sure if there are photos or videos on that, though.
jergul large member	Fri Jan 06 13:55:06 Prolly true in a propaganda sense. JROTC stuff that is made mandatory in a way because of home schooling. Only half of ukrainian schools are in person still.
Pillz Member	Fri Jan 06 14:36:28 Daemon still believes ArmA3 clips are real
Pillz Member	Fri Jan 06 18:01:12 Major breakthrough in Soledar by Russian forces. We will presumably see an offensive by Russia somewhere within the week since the ground is frozen and expected to stay that way for a couple weeks.
Pillz Member	Fri Jan 06 18:40:50 Access to the Defense Politics Asia map now requires a Patreon sub. That sucks
Pillz Member	Sat Jan 07 09:14:25 The Ukrainian line has an outbreak of TB
Paramount Member	Sat Jan 07 10:38:17 I can’t like this video enough! He talks about Ukraine and Russia, and China. Not good strategy http://youtu.be/BcalV0prJjs
Seb Member	Mon Jan 09 17:15:30 They are talking about sending a squadron of challenger 2's that aren't earmarked for LEP to Ukraine. Now I'm not sure what that would do really as we operate rifled barrels needing special ammo etc. But it would be a glorious end for them to finally meet their intended purpose of destroying Russian tanks in the muddy fields of eastern Europe.
murder Member	Mon Jan 09 17:38:55 Honestly we need to get our shit together and quit sending a handful of every weapon system that has ever existed. The numbers are too small to do much good, and they create a fucking logistical nightmare.
murder Member	Mon Jan 09 17:58:02 M113s are junk, but it would be better to upgrade 2000 of those and send them over than to keep peppering Ukraine with random weapon systems.
Seb Member	Tue Jan 10 00:58:37 Indeed.
Pillz Member	Tue Jan 10 04:57:16 Yes, Germany can no longer rule out eventual shipments of Leopard 2s Britian might send challengers The US is sending Bradley's and maybe Skrykers. Rumors of Abrams in the spring. I would love to hear who you intend to offer logistical support for those vechiles. Even a vague plan of how you'd transport them in-country, given the fact Ukraine's rail network is on the verge of collapse. Europe doesn't have enough challengers or leopards to send to make a difference in the fighting. A thousand Abrams would be a cool addition, but even the US maintains it'd be virtually impossible to do so far. Battle of Soledar is almost over. Zelensky made a statement about how the men there have 'bought time' and it's now the time for an honorable retreat. Ukrainian sources are reporting dead in the hundreds per day from Soledar/Bakhmut since Christmas.
jergul large member	Tue Jan 10 04:58:07 It does not matter at this point. Combat vehicles are disposable because Ukraine just has so many variants. Repairs at brigade level or not at all. MBTs are still limited by type to where central repair depots (abroad) have logic. I have no idea why you would want to upgrade M113s instead of upgrading bradleys, Abrams, and Strykers. Depots in the US still have a huge backlog of those types of vehicles waiting upgrades and repairs.
murder Member	Tue Jan 10 06:55:44 "I have no idea why you would want to upgrade M113s instead of upgrading bradleys, Abrams, and Strykers." The number of available vehicles and their irrelevance to our defense needs. According to the company's old website ~ 80,000 of those things were produced over the years. We have several thousands of them, and there are thousands more available from countries around the world. Spare parts should be easy to come by.
murder Member	Tue Jan 10 07:00:24 "I have no idea why you would want to upgrade M113s instead of upgrading bradleys, Abrams, and Strykers. Depots in the US still have a huge backlog of those types of vehicles waiting upgrades and repairs." If you are referring to the US's own defense needs, we're fine. Canada hasn't invaded in like forever.
jergul large member	Tue Jan 10 07:45:12 Murder I am referring to upgrading Bradleys and sending them to Ukraine instead of retooling to upgrade M113s. I am also suggesting just throwing M113s into Ukraine and when they break down, dont sweat it. It does not matter. Send another.
murder Member	Tue Jan 10 09:08:05 "I am referring to upgrading Bradleys and sending them to Ukraine instead of retooling to upgrade M113s." There aren't enough of them that aren't needed. Or should I say "needed". There are too many people in the Pentagon and in Congress that think we're going to fight a large scale land war somewhere at sometime in the future and we need to be ready. "I am also suggesting just throwing M113s into Ukraine and when they break down, dont sweat it. It does not matter. Send another." It always matters. There's a finite supply of everything. And they need some level of upgrade if they are going to have any contact at all with the enemy. Otherwise they are just death traps.
jergul large member	Tue Jan 10 10:06:05 Ok, I will jot you down for the wanting the US to retool its refitting depots to upgrade M113s instead of Abrams, Bradleys and Strykers.
jergul large member	Tue Jan 10 10:09:50 Its the problem with batch production. The US (Russia, China, Germany, UK) have tons of vehicles. Most of which have not been upgraded from factory standards from back when they were produced. They are not in use either, but stored away in depots. So major countris have refitting and repair depots that meander along upgrading and repairing vehicles at a slow pace. The US has a huge backlog of vehicles awaiting repairs and refits.
murder Member	Tue Jan 10 10:53:04 "Ok, I will jot you down for the wanting the US to retool its refitting depots to upgrade M113s instead of Abrams, Bradleys and Strykers." Or ... and this a radical idea ... prop up a new one just for this purpose.
jergul large member	Tue Jan 10 12:17:40 Murder Instead of a new one to update more bradleys, strykers and abrams? Russia has the same issue. It sent modernized t-62s in because it was updating those for Syria. I could shut down that line, but once its up, its up. Any new lines would be for updating more modern vehicles of course.
murder Member	Tue Jan 10 14:21:56 "Instead of a new one to update more bradleys, strykers and abrams?" Yes. We don't need more updated Bradleys and Strykers, and we don't need Abrams at all. It's downright insane that every potential land battle would require crossing at least one ocean, and we want to rely on a 74 ton tank. What we need to do is equip lighter vehicles with Javelins or similar missiles so we can blow up tanks whenever we run across them ... which I suspect would soon be never much as opposing air forces don't even bother to take to the air anymore. Tanks are essentially land battleships. They don't make sense anymore. The point of all this armor was to stop Russia in eastern Europe anyway.
Pillz Member	Wed Jan 11 05:06:02 Soledar has fallen
Paramount Member	Wed Jan 11 09:29:28 ”Tanks are essentially land battleships. They don't make sense anymore.” I’m thinking if nukes make sense anymore. If they were developed because there was a need for a big bomb that would guarantee that an enemy’s army would be destroyed – do nukes still make sense today when there are missiles with pin-point accuracy?
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