Utopia Talk / Politics / Biden: They are still finding documents

murder Member	Sun Jan 22 07:13:31 They are still finding classified documents that Joe Biden has stashed everywhere. Apparently they've found classified materials that date back to Biden's time in the US Senate. Apparently the only place the FBI isn't finding documents is in the filing cabinets. http://www...-bidens-delaware-home-00078889 Biden needs to resign already.
Average Ameriacn Member	Sun Jan 22 07:36:34 Biden stole the documents, then he stole the election. Trump is our one and only true President.
obaminated Member	Sun Jan 22 15:17:09 He is gonna have to resign or else he will be impeached and or forced to step down. He will never go to jail though.
habebe Member	Sun Jan 22 16:20:07 No one really wants him in jail, let the man retire to Florida across the street from Maralago so that him and Trump can get into all sorts of shenanigans like those grumpy old men movies.
obaminated Member	Sun Jan 22 16:32:07 More appropriately they would be like Jack Lemmon and James Garner in My Fellow Americans with de santis playing Dan Aykroyds part.
Paramount Member	Sun Jan 22 17:45:50 They have apparently found classified documents in DC Chinatown. I don’t know, but that shooting in Cali Chinatown… what if Biden’s people were trying to retrieve some classified documents from there too, and before the FBI would find them, but something went wrong and Biden’s people ended up shooting up the place and killed people?
kargen Member	Sun Jan 22 17:51:31 I doubt he would be impeached. If he were it would be just like when Trump was impeached as the Senate isn't going to remove him. Republicans have investigations they can hold that will actually mean something. Biden is a lame duck now and will be gone in less than two years.
Rugian Member	Sun Jan 22 18:37:04 The dumbest part of all of this is that if the documents had been found a year ago, Biden would likely have been fine just laughing it off as a minor mistake. The GOP would have made a stink about it, but the media wouldn't care and the story would quickly fade into obscurity. Instead, this fuckwit decided to sic Merrick Garland and his politicized FBI on Trump and then spent six months crying about how Trump possessing confidential documents was the third worst thing to happen to the American Republic (after the 2016 election and January 6). The media was ecstatic and eagerly obsessed over how serious a matter it was and what criminal charges Trump should face. And then this happens. Everyone would look like a fool if they claimed that Biden's doc possession wasn't a big deal, so now they have to hammer on the guy as well. The truth is that every senior ex-government official probably has at least one document that they're not supposed to. Its not legal, but no one really cares. Problem is that every single thing Trump does is a capital crime, so now this controversy isn't going away for either man.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Sun Jan 22 21:48:49 Trump made it a big deal... the 'raid' wasn't public, no one was making any show of it he took hundreds of classified docs & thousands of other gov't docs & would NOT return them of course it should be dealt with, & took nearly 2 years to go to the drastic step of search warrant
Dukhat Member	Sun Jan 22 22:24:28 Whats happening with Biden is common with high up officials. Bush, Clinton, etc. usually they cooperste and nobody cares. Trump is the one that stole boxes about mostly the same thing and refused to cooperate.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Tue Jan 24 12:02:13 classified docs found at Pence's home thus... more evidence for the deal w/ the devil however, helps expose how stupid Trump's nonsensical secret declassification claims are... do we have to ask Trump if he secretly declassified these too? no, we don't & this is also completely different than Trump as his team returned them immediately (& far fewer docs) things the Right won't mention at all
obaminated Member	Tue Jan 24 12:13:41 If we can ignore outliers like cuckhat and tw.... The fact that the leaders of both parties are abusing their powers should unite the vast majority of Americans against them. What did Jefferson say about the tree of liberty?
murder Member	Tue Jan 24 13:04:54 All these fuckers have sticky fingers!
kargen Member	Tue Jan 24 13:41:58 The big difference in all this is there is a chance no matter how slim that President Trump could have those documents in his possession legally. I'm not saying they were declassified before he took them but at least the scenario exists that they could be. With the two VPs there is no way at all they could legally remove classified documents from a secured sight or store classified documents outside a secured sight. There is no scenario that makes that legal. The Trump thing is more complex because the documents were found and he cooperated in changing how they were being stored at his residence. He knew where they were the entire time and they were locked away. They were in the process of deciding which documents were not his when the raid happened. I believe the raid happened for purely political reasons just based on timing. It is complete bullshit that Biden wasn't in the know on that before hand like the white house tried to claim. Political or not eventually the court will decide should Trump have been allowed to have the documents or not. With Biden there was no way he should have those, he failed to keep them secure and even lost them for a while. With Pence we don't know if he knew where the documents were the whole time and thought hey I better report these or if they actually had to search for them. Either way he wasn't suppose to have them. Other than political consequences I don't see much happening to any of the three. Biden's handling or more to the point lack of handling the documents is the bigger concern because those documents were actually at risk for years being transferred and forgotten from location to location. If the Biden documents have anything about China or Ukraine there may be more than just political consequences but even then it is doubtful.
murder Member	Tue Jan 24 13:48:48 "I'm not saying they were declassified before he took them but at least the scenario exists that they could be." No they couldn't be. Because if they were the government would know about it.
murder Member	Tue Jan 24 14:04:41 I don't know why people on the right have trouble understanding this. Classified information is only classified if the people with access to it know who it can and can't be shared with. The same goes for unclassified information. It's not unclassified unless the people with access to that information know who it can and can't be shared with. There is no such classification as "unclassified but only for private citizen Trump and whoever the fuck he wants to share it with".
Dukhat Member	Tue Jan 24 14:46:39 Lol at kargen’s gaslighting. Both biden and pence turned things over and cooperated immediately. They didn’t lie about it for months and steal boxes and boxes of related info. Trump is a not just stupid like Biden and Pence. He’s criminal and always has been.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Tue Jan 24 15:33:47 "at least the scenario exists that they could be [declassified]" no they couldn't be "[Trump] cooperated in changing how they were being stored at his residence. He knew where they were the entire time and they were locked away" no he didn't... surveillance video showed docs being removed from that storage room, one reason for the judge-approved search warrant & no they weren't... docs were found in his office, not in that storage room (as Trump fully admitted w/ his 'not on the floor' insanity)
kargen Member	Wed Jan 25 01:16:23 "There is no such classification as "unclassified but only for private citizen Trump and whoever the fuck he wants to share it with"." I've not seen anyone claim that. I've seen them say a president can declassify documents. That would mean anybody could view them.
murder Member	Wed Jan 25 01:57:00 "That would mean anybody could view them." No they couldn't ... because nobody but Donald Trump would know that they are declassified.
kargen Member	Wed Jan 25 23:24:00 Trump and any/all people he told or were told by others. I'm thinking if they were declassified they should have been removed from envelopes that said classified on the front but unlike the other two there is a scenario where Trump legally could have those documents.
Forwyn Member	Wed Jan 25 23:47:08 "no they couldn't be" Yes they could lol For the thousandth time, Biden (as Senator and VP) did not have declassification powers. Pence did not have declassification powers. Trump did.
Forwyn Member	Wed Jan 25 23:47:57 Ergo muhhhhhh cooperation argument is retarded; Pence and Biden BETTER open their doors, because they have no legal defense for having them in their homes and private offices. Trump does.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Jan 26 01:20:35 secret declassification makes no sense secret declassification makes no sense secret declassification makes no sense it has never & will never be a thing as secret declassification makes no sense having the power to do it & having the power to do it without anyone knowing nor any indication of it are different things (plus Trump just fucking making it up is completely expected behavior) no idea why anyone just accepts the totally obvious bullshit he makes up... as... secret declassification makes no sense
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Jan 26 01:23:15 "if they were declassified they should have been removed from envelopes" way more than that happens the doc creator or supervisor is notified, the doc is reviewed, the doc is marked when & by whom it was declassified & the classification markings stricken -obviously- SOMEONE needs to know it happened... incredibly obviously... as... secret declassification makes no sense
Forwyn Member	Thu Jan 26 11:59:40 "secret declassification makes no sense" Doesn't have to. The sooner you understand that the President has unilateral and universal declassification powers, not you, not some judge, not some Congressman, not the VP, not Senators, the sooner you'll be able to cope
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Jan 26 16:53:02 so you think it's possible any or all classified docs from pre-2017 are conversation pieces in Obama's home and any or all classified docs from pre-2010 are conversation pieces in Bush's home that current & future members of the gov't don't need to know what's still classified & in fact any current documents they believe are classified (& marked as such) may not actually be classified and even if you believe that ridiculousness would be legal, it STILL makes Trump completely unfit for office for what he did (plus sooo much more)
habebe Member	Thu Jan 26 19:24:48 "that current & future members of the gov't don't need to know what's still classified" That is not the question. The question is what does the law say? Its pretty clear the entire system of classification was designed for the potus, no one else.
habebe Member	Thu Jan 26 19:26:32 You keep coming up with these ideas that it's supposed to be a certain way, but you have yet to find a binding law that supports any of these theories.
Forwyn Member	Thu Jan 26 21:20:17 Yes, it is almost impossible to prosecute Bush for handling documents from the 2000-2008 period if there is reasonable doubt that he obtained them within that period. Yes, it almost impossible to prosecute Obama for handling documents from the 2009-2016 period if there is reasonable doubt that he obtained them within that period. Goons are free to come take them back if the current Pres believes the information is still sensitive and important to national security. But any trial would be a sham, and an obvious political witch hunt.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Jan 26 21:27:49 have you cited law? his lawyers haven’t even claimed in any filings that he declassified those docs, and the extra absurd claim was the ‘standing order’ of all docs going to his places being declassified... the places he went every weekend... just declassify docs based on time and location of viewing, rather than the content... how the fuck would that make any sense? and why would anyone ever make a standing order like that? and of course no one has confirmed this obvious lie of a standing order, whereas multiple denied it (including two of his chiefs of staff) and never would have allowed it (& obviously it didn’t happen as the docs never marked) it is so incredibly clearly false... a claim the habitual liar made up only -after- feds ‘raid’ his home & coincidentally clears him of a crime, but otherwise makes no sense to have ever occurred plus even if ridiculously accepting the completely obvious lie from the continual liar, he should STILL -want- to share the docs so the govt know what the fuck he declassified rather than refusing to let them see them... he should be -insisting- they look and be recognizing no one ever marked them (plus he still doesn’t get to just take them, declassified or not) so much -clear- wrong-doing
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Jan 26 21:48:10 ...and he went with the idiotic ridiculous 'standing order' as that means any docs they found (or ever find in future) can ever violate classified info law... the crime that he was just raided & confirmed to have committed a week or so before making the obvious lie of a claim & that's literally the -only- reason to ever have such a standing order (that no one knows about as obviously didn't happen)... it makes no sense at all as a means of deciding declassification such an incredibly obvious lie... is it just so obvious that it seems it must be something else? there is no mystery to this toddler fraud ever-liar
habebe Member	Thu Jan 26 22:03:42 Article 2 USC, Supported by the SCOTUS ruling Egan V the US Navy. Im short the Potus is granted ultimate* classification authority as the entire system was literally made for that singular position. Any EO's are consider lesser law, since the USC is the Supreme law of the land. Lesser laws can not constrict an authority granted by the USC. you can call it insane or dumb, but its really that simple. The constitution does not specify any procedure or requirements.
kargen Member	Fri Jan 27 00:09:24 "his lawyers haven’t even claimed in any filings that he declassified those docs" I don't think anyone here is making that claim either. We are saying there is a chance no matter how slim that Trump could possess those documents legally. There is no scenario that would allow the other two to do so.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Fri Jan 27 01:06:57 yes, he had power to do it, but didn't & if sticking w/ the notion what he did was legal, then still pledge not to vote for him ever again given how fucking ridiculous & irresponsible it would be to have done there's no scenario where he's fit for office
Seb Member	Fri Jan 27 05:21:23 The power of declassification means the authority to declassify a document. The act of declassification normally means removing classified markings and updating the information asset register (or whatever you call the record keeping system over there). If you don't do that, even if you have the authority to do so, then you have not declassified the document. If you share the document before you have declassified it, then you have broken the regulations around declassification. It is that simple.
Seb Member	Fri Jan 27 05:22:13 Having the authority to declassify a document does not mean you can automatically share it with whoever you like without actually declassifying the document.
Cherub Cow Member	Fri Jan 27 09:03:00 Hilarious to see how fucking retarded tw is being on this one — yet again. A president can indeed declassify material. This is a thing. End of fucking story, you dumb bitch. And it makes total sense, you dumb bitch: a president *must* be able to see anything and everything that is actionable at the executive level for the performance of his job. He *must* be able to read people into that material as needed for the execution of that job — which requires declassification on-the-spot — often with no paper trail. You dumb bitch. Wake. The. Fuck. Up. [TDS Bot]: "the doc creator or supervisor is notified, the doc is reviewed, the doc is marked when & by whom it was declassified & the classification markings stricken" Not necessarily. I keep seeing dumb-bitch takes like this by low-IQ underlings. They usually go, "[Hur hur, when I dealt with classified materials, this is how we did it!]" — ignoring that that's how *underlings* deal with classified — not necessarily how classified materials are handled in upper echelons. These underlings had no clue that they only had their tiny piece of the puzzle. Even Ted Cruz had a statement very recently that made this error. He presumed that the only time that senators deal with classified material is in the SCIF below the House where a strict control protocol is used. This is not true. He clearly needs to travel more, or he's lying for effect. [Forwyn]: "Doesn't have to. The sooner you understand that the President has unilateral and universal declassification powers, not you, not some judge, not some Congressman, not the VP, not Senators, the sooner you'll be able to cope" Yep. Tw's is going to be shitting his pants for a decade before he figures out this basic fact. Get to coping already, tw, you dumb bitch. [TDS Bot]: "so much -clear- wrong-doing" Let's all revel in the fact that anything that the TDS Bot says here about Trump and classified materials is *actually* applicable to Biden now, since Biden did not have presidential privileges when he stole classified materials. The *best* that these dumb fucks have is "[Biden told everyone really quickly after he shit himself that he needed a new nappy]." And even *that* is a fucking lie, since they found the documents November 2nd, sat on them until after the election, told the White House before they told the DOJ, were told by the FBI not to touch anything, and proceeded to keep touching shit. They tried to cover up the documents, and now it seems that Hunter Biden himself had enough unrestricted access that his crack-orgies with prostitutes probably spilled (literally) onto the documents. [Seb]: "The act of declassification normally means removing classified markings and updating the information asset register ... If you don't do that, even if you have the authority to do so, then you have not declassified the document." False and dimwitted. This is, again, that underling take on how classified documents are handled. The incorrect assumption is again that all documents are fully inventoried at all times and that authorities are constantly chaperoning documents. This is false and logistically impossible. There's a *reason* that document inspectors walking into a classified building usually see people rushing back to their offices, and it's not just because Biden shit his diaper again. In practice, documents can be labeled provisionally and without a fully informed authority, with executives over-classifying just in case. Discretionary batches can be kept in secured locations with the "inventory" being as simple as "box of lots of shit". These things tend to fall through the cracks because it's usually frivolous garbage like a daily itinerary (only really classified on that day and forgotten afterwards). They may be placed within larger batches and simply given a shred time-table, like, "[shred all of this non-inventory stuff in about a month]". The ultimate control in those cases is that people aren't supposed to be smuggling it out in their diapers like Biden and feeding it to China and Ukraine in order to sell out the West to a genocidal totalitarian scheme. There's a reason that Biden and his goons wanted to keep rummaging through the documents after the DOJ told them not to: lots of that is likely on no inventory and could be shred without anyone being the wiser. They can do quick looks for pagination, and if pagination is absent, they can probably get away with shredding. If you doubt that classified documents often exist without an inventory, I'd be surprised if it doesn't take a conscious effort for you to breath.
Seb Member	Fri Jan 27 09:46:54 Cherub Cow: Not the way it is done at all. If you need to read someone in, you can grant them clearance to see a particular document or even grant them clearance. You don't need to be president to do that either (the authority to grant clearances is delegated to other officers and managed in line with policy) - so the idea that there is a super magic process that nobody who isn't the president would know about is speculation on your part. The rules on managing protected marking are part of basic training. Granting clearance to see a protected document is *not* the same as declassifying the document. The former is granting an individual access to information that remains controlled. The latter is to cease controls on that document, which means that *everyone* can see the document and releases other people bound by relevant laws from viewing docs they do not have clearance for. Bottom line, if the document has a protective marking, and the information asset register has the document still listed with a protected marking, then it is still subject to controls as far as the administration and judiciary are concerned. Claims - even from a former president who at one point had such authority and clearances - that they have declassified the document in the past hold no water if there is no record of it. At the time the Biden administration asked for the documents, there is no way to substantiate the claims of the former president that he had declassified them. There was no record of them having been declassified. Ergo, they are still classified as far as the US executive is concerned - and as you point out, it is the current president that has the authority to determine if documents are classified or declassified. Also note that classified documents that are leaked into the public domain RETAIN their classifications and public servants and anyone else bound by the relevant laws still have to treat them as such. This can lead to some pretty perverse situations.
Habebe Member	Fri Jan 27 11:45:15 Seb, "The act of declassification normally means removing classified markings and updating the information asset register (or whatever you call the record keeping system over there). If you don't do that, even if you have the authority to do so, then you have not declassified the document." I don't know how the system works in the UK. However in the US the system was built soley for the president basically.In common practice he appoints others and delegates it most of the time. But more importantly, it has been determined that the POTUS derives ultimate authority over classification and declassification, and the only laws regarding procedure are not enforceable upon a president so they are basically suggestions. Is Trump acting out of the norms? Absolutely, AFAIK, presidents generally do not reclassify this way, however the procedure is different with each one a little bit. However, no one has ever raided a presidents home to confiscate documents and make such an issue of it, and apparently they and their administration all take documents and leave them anywhere.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Fri Jan 27 12:23:33 "A president can indeed declassify material" yep, he sure can, but didn't, absolutely nothing suggests he did... (except the guy who would definitely reflexively lie about it) ----------- "...And even *that* is a fucking lie, since [Biden team] found the documents November 2nd, sat on them until after the election" this dumb bitch is packed with false info... Biden docs found Nov 2, returned Nov 3, they only waited on any public acknowledgement whereas Trump would -still- have all these documents (both classified & tons of other gov't docs) if not for the search warrant --------- on the stupid belief he DID declassify, by what reasonable explanation would he never want the gov't to know it happened?
Forwyn Member	Fri Jan 27 12:47:00 Lol. Seb hears the phrase "bureaucratic process" and breaks out the lotion
murder Member	Fri Jan 27 17:10:06 "Doesn't have to. The sooner you understand that the President has unilateral and universal declassification powers, not you, not some judge, not some Congressman, not the VP, not Senators, the sooner you'll be able to cope" Well unfortunately for Donald Trump, Joe Biden had secretly reclassified them, making it a felony for Trump to be in possession of them. Biden also secretly classified your porn stash as top secret, so you've been committing felonies every time you accessed it, so you're going to the federal penitentiary. Sorry, those are the rules. Presidents have that unilateral authority.
Habebe Member	Fri Jan 27 17:31:04 "Seb hears the phrase "bureaucratic process" and breaks out the lotion" I laughed too hard at this.
Cherub Cow Member	Fri Jan 27 21:42:50 [Seb]: "Not the way it is done at all." False. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about. I like that you even re-present what I just fucking said while pretending that we disagreed, you disingenuous piece of shit. You just list a bunch of obvious shit while pretending that it's contradictory. Are you Jewish, a life-long troll, or retarded, you Poe's-Law bot? [Seb]: "so the idea that there is a super magic process that nobody who isn't the president would know about is speculation on your part." No, it's not, you dumb bitch, and that's a straw man argument, you disingenuous piece of shit, since I did *not* say that "[hur hur, only the president knows]," you fucking liar. How the fuck would *I* know if only the president knows, shit-stain? This information is known by anyone who's worked in offices where classified material is actively generated — a population of millions. And we've seen people **in this forum** (e.g., tw) make the fucking retarded error that there is only "one" way to handle classified materials, believing that that's the low-level way where classified documents always already exist and are simply managed. I've seen *dozens* of people across social media's retard-spheres (e.g., Imgur, Reddit, Twitter) make the same mistaken belief that "[hur hur, logbooks and inventories are air tight. We always had chain of custody! I would have been fired!]" [Seb]: "declassifying the document ... is to cease controls on that document, which means that *everyone* can see the document and releases other people bound by relevant laws from viewing docs they do not have clearance for." Not quite, dumbass. Documents can be declassified but still controlled. Do you really think that any random can walk into a declassified documents cache and just start reading? Do you really think that things get declassified at 1pm and go to the New York Times by 2pm? No, you fucking idiot. They most often get declassified and then disappear to secure locations where they may never be seen again. [Seb]: "Claims - even from a former president who at one point had such authority and clearances - that they have declassified the document in the past hold no water if there is no record of it." False and fucktarded. Batched documents can be given a mass-declassification while *not* physically removing their cover sheets. Here's an example: 1) An office does its monthly deep-dive inventory. 2) They find one box which includes dozens of non-inventoried items (or rather, inventoried as a "box" rather than per-file) which were given higher-than-needed classification due to on-the-spot classification needs (e.g., daily itineraries). 3) The entire box is "declassified" verbally and sent for incineration/shredding. Now, if you're retarded like Seb, then the person who moves the documents from the office to the incinerator/shredder is still handling classified documents. This is false and fucktarded. As a simple matter of convenience, the person doing the shredding may find it better to destroy the documents *with* the cover sheets simply so they're not destroying documents for their entire fucking life. It is up to the office whether or not the cover sheets will be maintained or destroyed (e.g., some offices are very averse to making new cover sheets as a way to limit their production of documents), and yet the documents with those cover sheets are declassified yet controlled at this point. Similarly, the movement of documents from the White House to Mar-a-Lago can be done without an imperative to remove cover sheets simply because the task would take time that was not available. Only a retarded Vogon could think that things have not occurred if they have not been written down — yet that is the mantra of Sebbish bureaucrats whose god is paper, for paper lacks the imagination that they themselves lack as they march in formal procession from their birth certificates to their death certificates. [Seb]: "and as you point out" Did not point this out, you piece of shit. I don't disagree, but don't throw your rhetorical bullshit at me. [Seb]: "there is no way to substantiate the claims of the former president that he had declassified them. There was no record of them having been declassified. Ergo, they are still classified" False. The word of a president is sufficient. The only exception to this is if a totalitarian state that has been infiltrated by Malthusian Marxists is attempting to use any and all means — including the creation of entirely unsupported precedents — to remove the political chances of a populist president who opposes in part the totalitarian strategy, just as the CIA has done abroad for more than 50 years to the populist leaders of other nations, including the recent Brazil electioneering. You are witnessing a deep-state coup in real time, and in your stupidity are being led by the nose by their hyper-immediate lies — not seeing that those lies contradict powers which would not have made anyone blink before the propaganda of 2016 began. [Seb]: "Bottom line, if the document has a protective marking, and the information asset register has the document still listed with a protected marking," Notice how Seb slightly shifts his argument while pretending that he knew all along. This is how Seb gains ground despite having been fucking *wrong* initially. The slight change in his argument is that "if [condition A] AND [condition B]", which is correct but **not what he said before**. His argument before was "[Condition A and B are the same condition]." He is such a piece of shit. He *knows* that the hole in his argument was that documents often are *not* inventoried, so now he's pretending that he knew about that condition and is re-presenting his hypothesis-argument with the incorporated and previously unknown information. Let's call this the "Seb Maneuver": 1) Seb says something completely fucking retarded, akin to a Cunningham's Law prompt. 2) Someone corrects Seb and calls him out for his retardation, stating the correct facts. 3) Seb says, "No, that's not correct," to make it appear that he's about to disagree. 4a) Seb proceeds to *agree* but restates your own argument back to you in his own words. 4b) Simultaneously with Step 4a, Seb, still being a fucking idiot, repeats step 1, making all-new errors. 5) Seb continually repeats this sequence, incrementally adjusting his argument until you're arguing with a deformed Brundle-fly version of your own argument. .. [CC]: "A president can indeed declassify material" [TDS Bot]: "yep, he sure can, [and he did by his own word]" Awesome! Glad you agree! I'm glad that you're waking up from your psychotic delusions. A bed-wetting diaper-shitting pedophile-supporter might have made the argument that "[hur hur, Trump is a liar, so he must not have done this]," but not you! You're above that pathetic communist propaganda because you're not an impotent little weasel who spends his day rubbing peanut butter on his Trump poster so he can lick it off while watching Acyn propaganda. :D [TDS Bot]: "false info... Biden docs found Nov 2, returned Nov 3, they only waited on any public acknowledgement" False, you fucking liar. This was reported and confirmed even by the Washington Post, so even regime media knows how this went down. You fucking *know* that they sat on the info. You fucking *know* that they first contacted the White House before the DOJ. Even their useful idiot Press Secretary was in the dark until January, and even she admitted this when pressed, you piece of shit liar. Everything bad you say about Trump is your own personal character flaw, you dumb bitch liar. [TDS Bot]: "on the stupid belief he DID declassify, by what reasonable explanation would he never want the gov't to know it happened?" I love how comically retarded even your examination question is — a perfect encapsulation that even your search for "truth" has corrupted you into faulty inquiries. You *presume* that he would "never want the gov't to know it happened", since, having no conscience, you are incapable of the good faith required to realize that he has **no imperative** to do these things himself. Reconciliation and inventory is a government process, meaning that a president does not need to be hypervigilant about himself; these actions happen on his behalf to protect his interests. This normally functions without issue since the office of the president is understood by government authorities as possessing this power. The question you ought to ask is, "Why did government entities choose to disregard the president's own powers and authorities?" And the answer is that they are totalitarian Bolshevik scum attempting to remove a competitor to their strategy. If that means undermining the very powers of the government, they will do it. Do you doubt this? These are the same people attempting to undermine every Constitutional power that they can. These are the *same* people trying to remove parties from ballots, asking to pack the Supreme Court, abolish the Senate, make D.C. a state, abolish the Electoral College, and a hundred other Republic-ending machinations that would make slaves of United States citizens in the perpetual distraction of oppressor/oppressed in-fighting. Do you really think that they wouldn't invent a way to stop a competitor from running again? These people have the same hole of a missing morality as yourself, which means that nothing is beneath them.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Fri Jan 27 21:57:54 “Reconciliation and inventory is a government process” yep, and that’s why they came to him and said ‘you seem to have taken a shit ton of docs, please return’ then, yes, it’s on him... yet he jerked them around repeatedly, including after a subpoena, until they finally resorted to a search warrant after tipped off to more (plus docs being moved)... indefensible behavior but of course you’re already a total fucking idiot for believing his ‘standing order’ possibly happened, which was the idiotic method he claimed of how they were supposedly declassified and would also be indefensible behavior
tumbleweed the wanderer	Fri Jan 27 22:21:22 and you also fucking crazily believe Trump was acting as swiftly as possible on Jan 6th (& that he was totally upset at the attack) Trump Derangement Syndrome
murder Member	Sat Jan 28 00:04:11 "then, yes, it’s on him... yet he jerked them around repeatedly, including after a subpoena, until they finally resorted to a search warrant after tipped off to more (plus docs being moved)... indefensible behavior" He did worse than that. He actually tried to get the courts to order the government to give him back the documents that he'd already been told he had no right to.
Cherub Cow Member	Sat Jan 28 03:37:19 [TDS Bot]: "[I have] Trump Derangement Syndrome" Yes, yes you do have TDS. This is well established. No need to sign-off your posts like this; we know. (Also fucking hilarious that you think you can project that onto me, since *you* have twenty-six fucking threads about the man, whereas the few times I've talked about him it's to say that he is indeed a narcissistic sociopath whose only redeeming arch is that he accidentally stood up against the totalitarian scum of the international left, simply because he instinctively preserves the profit motive which the international Bolsheviks oppose.) [TDS Bot]: "and you also fucking crazily believe Trump was acting as swiftly as possible on Jan 6th (& that he was totally upset at the attack)" So transparently desperate to bring up your other TDS issues with your usual straw man arguments, including your having fallen for the hoax wherein you presume insane things about Trump's state of mind based on a complete *lack* of evidence (those missing moments!). It's like presuming that response delays in this forum must mean that people are doing an insurrection — absolutely retarded logic. [TDS Bot]: "then, yes, it’s on him... yet he jerked them around repeatedly, including after a subpoena, until they finally resorted to a search warrant after tipped off to more (plus docs being moved)... indefensible behavior" False, you dumb bitch. Trump's house is on-the-record having complied multiple times with requests by the DoJ and document-handling authorities (e.g., security storage, security locks, consolidation of documents). The raid was done by an activist faction within the FBI. This in-house activism has been repeatedly confirmed by FBI whistle-blowers who have pointed out the obvious: the FBI is experiencing the same hyper-polarized divisions that created the Bolshevik left in the U.S. Even Merrick Garland had to go on camera and pull a "Sum of All Fears" Russian president play be assuring people, "[It was on my orders]," since the admission that he does not control the FBI would have been a shocking admission: a runaway FBI. At any rate, even if you truly believe that Trump did not comply, then you — if you were ever again capable of ideological consistency — would have to see the same behavior did in fact occur via the White House timeline on Biden documents. They did indeed delay in contacting the FBI, continued going through documents even after being told not to do so, and intentionally withheld information and spread lies to cover-up the story. *Everything* you want to believe of Trump is true of Biden. That is the cost of your insanities, and that is the goal of creating useful idiots such as yourself. You were programmed for terminal hyper-partisanship. A psychotic death spiral from which you are not mentally equipped to return.
Seb Member	Sat Jan 28 04:00:27 "I don't know how the system works in the UK." Much the same way as in the US - five eyes countries harmonised their rules for interoperability.
Seb Member	Sat Jan 28 04:15:46 "But more importantly, it has been determined that the POTUS derives ultimate authority over classification and declassification," And at the time the documents were found, they were still marked classified, registered as classified, and the POTUS was Biden. You seem to be claiming that citizens Trump can access any classified document created before 20 January 2021 and claim "oh, I declassified that while I was president". Forwyn: Understanding process isn't the intellectual self-gratification going on here. CC: "You don't know what the fuck you're talking about" Actually I do. You, on the other hand, clearly don't. "Documents can be declassified but still controlled." Splitting hairs. Point is when you read someone in, you aren't declassifying the document, you are granting them access to the document based on your authority to grant clearance. "The entire box is "declassified" verbally and sent for incineration/shredding." The box would then be marked, and declassification is not needed to destroy such records anyway. "The word of a president is sufficient" Trump wasn't president though. "Notice how Seb slightly shifts his argument" Learn to read CC. "The act of declassification normally means removing classified markings and updating the information asset register (or whatever you call the record keeping system over there)."
murder Member	Sat Jan 28 05:09:50 "You seem to be claiming that citizens Trump can access any classified document created before 20 January 2021 and claim "oh, I declassified that while I was president"." That's exactly what she and others claim. And not just Trump, but all former Presidents.
murder Member	Sat Jan 28 05:13:54 "For the thousandth time, Biden (as Senator and VP) did not have declassification powers. Pence did not have declassification powers." This is false. Under an executive order signed by Obama, the VP did have the power to classify and declassify information. The same would have applied to Pence unless Trump secretly thought that Pence couldn't.
Cherub Cow Member	Sat Jan 28 05:19:10 [Seb]: "Actually I do. You, on the other hand, clearly don't." False and retard-pilled. Which one of us lives in the States, you piece of shit? You don't know what you are talking about, and your life spent in a coward's nation makes it a terminal condition. [Seb]: "Splitting hairs." False and goalpost-moving, you coward. That was *not* splitting hairs. It was a *direct* contradiction to your fucking *wrong* argument. You fucking spoke out of your ass, and I called you on it, you disingenuous piece of shit. You're such a fucking weasel. [Seb]: "The box would then be marked, and declassification is not needed to destroy such records anyway." Not necessarily, retard. And again, you're shifting since you know I'm right and you spoke out of your ass. The crux here is that you *know* that document handling can never be perfect — unless you admit to your retardation — and that this simple fact gives *both* Trump *and* Biden a *lot* of leeway. [Seb]: "Trump wasn't president though." False. You're again doing this stupid assumption that declassification could have only occurred after Biden was sworn in. This directly contradicts the timeline, which was that the documents left the White House during or before Biden's swearing in. Trump held his powers at this time. He was indeed president, and you are outright lying by suggesting otherwise. [Seb]: "Learn to read CC." Ironic seeing this from an illiterate cretin such as yourself. You did indeed change your argument, you piece of shit. You have done this many many times before, and you did it above. Even in the quotation you posted you did exactly what I said: you combined those subjects into *one* unit. You're too goddamned stupid to realize that you just fed me my own point, or, you're once again doing it as part of your retarded gaslighting operation, which may as well be chiseled in stone now: The Seb Maneuver: 1) Seb says something completely fucking retarded, akin to a Cunningham's Law prompt. 2) Someone corrects Seb and calls him out for his retardation, stating the correct facts. 3) Seb says, "No, that's not correct," to make it appear that he's about to disagree. 4a) Seb proceeds to *agree* but restates your own argument back to you in his own words. 4b) Simultaneously with Step 4a, Seb, still being a fucking idiot, repeats step 1, making all-new errors. 5) Seb continually repeats this sequence, incrementally adjusting his argument until you're arguing with a deformed Brundle-fly version of your own argument.
Habebe Member	Sat Jan 28 11:29:43 "Much the same way as in the US - five eyes countries harmonised their rules for interoperability." So, the US President has basically unlimited authority over tour system? "And at the time the documents were found, they were still marked classified, registered as classified, and the POTUS was Biden. You seem to be claiming that citizens Trump can access any classified document created before 20 January 2021 and claim "oh, I declassified that while I was president"." Having a marking does not make it so.There is no relevant law or judicial ruling. I get that sounds nit picky, but the entire fiasco is not picky, everyone plays fast and loose with the classified documents, only Trump was it an issue. I get that many people think that is the case, but again, the process of it all is literally up to the president. Should we codify some changes to set boundaries on the process, sure Id be down but who knows if we can agree enough to change the USC, personally I think most things shouldn't be classified for as long as they are.
murder Member	Sat Jan 28 11:33:31 "I get that many people think that is the case, but again, the process of it all is literally up to the president." That's kind of unfortunate because Joe Biden is President and Donald Trump is not.
murder Member	Sat Jan 28 11:35:01 "Should we codify some changes to set boundaries on the process, sure Id be down but who knows if we can agree enough to change the USC, personally I think most things shouldn't be classified for as long as they are." There's no need. Joe Biden is president and he says the materials Trump took were classified. Lock him up!
Seb Member	Sun Jan 29 06:39:36 Cherub: "Which one of us lives in the States, you piece of shit?" Understanding of classification rules doesn't come from where you are born. As I mentioned rules across Five Eyes nations are harmonised to facilitate exchange if secret information. I've of us has had to undergo repeated annual training on how it works. The other is an emotionally charged blowhard. Your argument is that the president *must* be able to declassify documents to read people in. That's false: that's granting clearance to someone to see a document. Declassifying would mean others with access to the document could share it without breaking the laws and regulations relating to control of protected information, and potentially those without it to request under FOI legislation (subject to other exemptions that might still apply). Interpreting my statement that everyone can see the document overly literally rather than a reference to what process classification rules control is indeed splitting hairs. So once again, you are wrong to equate reading in with declassification. "Not necessarily, retard" That would be a breach of procedures. I suspect you are confusing destruction of secure materials as secure materials with declassification and disposal. In the latter case, the box should be sealed (i.e. tape) and marked declassified to avoid confusion. "* that document handling can never be perfect" Indeed, beaches are common. That's not the same as saying a breach isn't a breach The rule is, if it's marked, the protective handling rules apply. And while a serving President can say he's declassified a document or deem anyone they like as cleared as he's literally above the classification process, once out of office if there's no record that the doc is declassified and it bears a protective marking, and it is registered as classified in the IAR, it is classified. End of. "You did indeed change your argument" Nope, it's clear as day in my first post. "The act of declassification normally means removing classified markings and updating the information asset register (or whatever you call the record keeping system over there)." You suggested the "and" was a later qualification because you are lazy and don't bother to read. "His argument before was "[Condition A and B are the same condition]." At no point have I made that argument. It is obvious you need to do both otherwise anyone can just strike through the protective marking and claim they received it as declassified. Or an ex president that had illegally continued to hold classified material would be able to claim it was declassified even though there is literally no record of this happening either on the documents themselves or in the IAR. In the case of only one you could say it was an innocent oversight. "You're again doing this stupid assumption that declassification could have only occurred after Biden was sworn in" Nope. I'm saying that under handling rules, documents are supposed to be handled *as they are marked*. It is a breach to do otherwise. That's true even of copies of documents marked declassified in the IAR (though if you have authority you can update the markings). Trump lost his powers with he left office. So even if he remembered having declassified them, it would still be an offense to mishandle them contrary to their marking, and more so if contrary to their registration in the IAR. Habebe: Nope. Systems work in the same way. That's not the same as saying that one country can change the classification of information that do not own. "Having a marking does not make it so" It literally does actually fit the purposes of determining if someone is in beach of duties under the regulation. But arguably a technical breach if information had been recorded as declassified and this particular copy not updated. But that was not the case. "so.There is no relevant law or judicial ruling." The law sets out powers. The procedural rules are determined by the president and standing exec orders etc. These haven't changed and Trump isn't President and can't claim he retroactively changed them. "process of it all is literally up to the president." Yeah, and Biden is the president and there's no document that says the USGs policy has changed on this point. You went on and on about Hilary's emails, yet here you are bending over backwards to try and argue Trump can steal a much of secret documents, and refuse to return them - a far more egregious breach.
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