Utopia Talk / Politics / Meanwhile in Minnesota

Rugian Member	Mon Mar 06 04:11:53 Minnesota legislator: 'I'm sick of White Christians' adopting Native American babies, continuing 'genocide' I’m sick of white Christians adopting our babies and rejoicing," Minnesota State Rep. Heather Keeler posted on her personal Facebook page recently, according to Alpha News. "It’s a really sad day when that happens. It means the genocide continues. "If you care about our babies, advocate against the genocide," the post continued. "Help the actual issues impacting indigenous parents, stop stealing our babies and changing their names under the impression you are helping. White saviors are the worst!" The post from Keeler, who is Native American and an enrolled member of the Yankton Sioux Tribe, followed up on a post from her professional Facebook page with a similar sentiment that said "stripping" Native American children of their "identity" is a "form of genocide." http://www...can-babies-continuing-genocide
jergul large member	Mon Mar 06 06:39:58 Well, is she wrong?
murder Member	Mon Mar 06 06:59:48 More importantly ... Heather Keeler is a Native American name? Shouldn't she have shed that by now and adopted a more traditional name like Angry Wind?
murder Member	Mon Mar 06 07:05:19 "Well, is she wrong?" Her tone is definitely wrong. It's outrageous to accuse loving parents who adopt children who need a home of "stealing their babies" and committing genocide. Why doesn't she step the fuck up and take all those kids in and stop the genocide? It's one thing to say that native parents who live in bad circumstances need more help so that they don't feel the need to give up their children and so natives can adopt native babies in need of homes, but it's a whole other thing to vomit out vile bullshit that is just going to lead to a bunch of kids never having a chance in life because no one adopts them. She can step up or fuck all the way off!
jergul large member	Mon Mar 06 08:33:56 Murder Indeed. What factors stop Native-Americans from being adopted within their communities? In that light, outside adoption is more a symptom of genocide than it is genocide itself. Though mitigating measures could still be taken. For example that those adopting Native-American children commit to exposing them to their indigenous culture. But I see you to a greater degree understand the nuance of Ukrainian children in Russian foster care. Good for you!
Rugian Member	Mon Mar 06 09:10:32 "Indeed. What factors stop Native-Americans from being adopted within their communities?" Numbers, for one. The Yankton Sioux Tribe counts 11,594 members, which means that the pool of people willing to adopt a child at any given time is probably minimal. Interesting though that you seem to endorse the idea that ethnics should be adopted by their fellow ethnics. There's a word for that sort of mentality, r- something or x- something, can't remember.
murder Member	Mon Mar 06 09:43:27 "Though mitigating measures could still be taken. For example that those adopting Native-American children commit to exposing them to their indigenous culture." Why? Children are children. All they need are love and opportunities. They don't exist to ensure the continuation of a tribe or a culture. This fucked up tribal mentality is why Europe can't get it's shit together. "But I see you to a greater degree understand the nuance of Ukrainian children in Russian foster care." No, those children are victims of child trafficking. They are being stolen from their families. They are not in foster care. They are captives.
jergul large member	Mon Mar 06 10:13:16 Ruggy A perspective limited to indigenous peoples. Murder Wrong I am afraid. In so far as possible, children are returned to Ukraine if there are actual parents or grandparents in Ukraine to claim them. Otherwise, Russia follows its realities that include it thinking it has annexed Ukrainian territories. Reunification with parents or grandparents in Ukraine is the exception to Russia considering the children Russian nationals evacuated from a warzone. Hypocritical to think it wrong they were evacuated from warzones. Outlandish to think they might be handed over for adoption or to orphanages in Ukraine proper.
Rugian Member	Mon Mar 06 10:20:27 "A perspective limited to indigenous peoples." Why? Why do Indians deserve any sort of special carve-out?
jergul large member	Mon Mar 06 10:25:32 Ruggy I will refer you to relevant conventions for details, but in sum: genocide bad.
jergul large member	Mon Mar 06 10:26:30 MOSCOW, March 6. /TASS/. Russian Human Rights Commissioner Tatyana Moskalkova said on Monday that she is in touch with her Ukrainian counterpart, Dmitry Lubinets, almost on a daily basis to facilitate the return to Russia and Ukraine of civilians who wish to reunite with their families. "The agenda concerns the return of civilians who would like to reunite with their relatives in Russia or Ukraine. We are now handling three cases of the reunification of children with their parents, and we correspond almost daily with [Ukrainian Ombudsperson Dmitry] Lubinets regarding the procedure for the reunification of children," Moskalkova said on the sidelines of a Russian-Kyrgyz women's forum. Negotiations on a prisoner swap are continuing between the Russian and Ukrainian defense ministries, she added. According to Moskalkova, seriously wounded military personnel is "the most painful, the most important topic today." "I have repeatedly pointed out to the Ukrainian side that they have been crossing ordinary rank-and-file soldiers off of the lists provided by the Russian Ministry of Defense, which is simply bewildering," she stressed. "I would like to highlight the fact that these people who have been proposed for participation in a prisoner exchange, of course, also have mothers and other loved ones who are waiting for them at home. Without a doubt, we would like to see them remain eligible for the exchange process," Moskalkova added. =========== Timely from TASS.
murder Member	Mon Mar 06 17:44:46 "Otherwise, Russia follows its realities that include it thinking it has annexed Ukrainian territories. Reunification with parents or grandparents in Ukraine is the exception to Russia considering the children Russian nationals evacuated from a warzone." You should know by now that I don't give a shit about your preferred Russian narratives. Reality isn't a stupid word game. Lies and truth do not hold equal weight.
kargen Member	Mon Mar 06 19:20:31 "Well, is she wrong?" yes. gen·o·cide /ˈjenəˌsīd/ noun the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group. Maybe Keeler is confusing adoption with abortion?
Forwyn Member	Mon Mar 06 20:34:26 "indigenous peoples" No such thing over here
jergul large member	Tue Mar 07 01:25:00 Kargen Confer with chatgpt for illumination. Forwyn Thank you for illustrating my point. ============ What I don't get is resistance to the word. Your nation is founded on serial genocide. Why the resistance to aknowledging you are simply keeping up with a glorious tradition?
jergul large member	Tue Mar 07 01:31:17 Murder Reality is most def a stupid game of emoticon words for you. Trafficking. Stolen. Captives. Pfft. Russia and Ukraine are working with reuniting children with their parents. Its not exactly easy. See the trouble you have reuniting children with their parents for the ones you held in camps. What Russia will not do is send children to Ukrainian orphanages (which are notiously horrible. Not that this is the reason), or sent to be adopted by other than grandparents. Incidentally nothing stopping parents from just going to Russia to find and collect their children. Well, nothing but the Ukrainian travel ban for men under 60.
murder Member	Tue Mar 07 05:06:52 Hardly surprising that you are so committed to Russian propaganda. Yes jergul, some kids were just wandering through a war zone and Russian soldiers had no choice to scoop them up and haul them off to Russia to keep them safe. "What Russia will not do is send children to Ukrainian orphanages..." Your honorable comrades would never subject children to such horrors.
jergul large member	Tue Mar 07 07:10:43 Murder You do understand that civilian centres on both sides of the contact line are being targetted, right? What should Russia do with unaccompanied minors in a war zone? The answer to that is evacuation. You seem to get it with the 8 million Ukrainian refugees abroad otherwise. What it should do thereafter is return them to their parents. Grandparents is a slavic touch. Russia and Ukraine are working on that and are sending minors to reunite with their parents or grandparents. Propaganda? Not so much. Now, how is it going with those unaccompanied minors in US camps? Have you managed to reunite them with their parents yet? If you have trouble with that in peace time, then imagine that it might be a bit difficult for Russia and Ukraine (Ukraine also has unaccompanied minors with parents in Russia or Donbas) to sort the matter too.
jergul large member	Tue Mar 07 07:16:02 http://gyazo.com/5824b86d1833a928dd56a318fb2b3706 Wow, it turns out you have twice the number of unaccompanied alien minors in custody than Ukraine claims are being held in Russia. Not really a good look, is it?
Forwyn Member	Tue Mar 07 11:26:42 "Thank you for illustrating my point." Your point is totally different. They can have their culture, apparently even if racism is a core component of it. That doesn't make them uniquely indigenous.
murder Member	Tue Mar 07 11:53:13 "Wow, it turns out you have twice the number of unaccompanied alien minors in custody than Ukraine claims are being held in Russia." Yeah we send our military across the border to snatch Mexican kids all the time. Then we try to force green cards on them.
Rugian Member	Tue Mar 07 12:55:03 Jergul is jumpy. In a thread about a random Minnesota politician, he somehow managed to turn it into a dick-measuring contest between Russia and America. Seems like he's insecure about something. Is the assault on Bakhmut going that poorly?
jergul large member	Tue Mar 07 17:06:59 Forwyn Being first makes them uniquely indigenous. Murder Missed the point there laddy. You have huge problems managing unaccompanied minors without a war going on. Russia and Ukraine are similarly also having trouble reuniting minors with their parents, with the added complexity of a war. Ruggy At least blame the right poster for defiling your thread's purity. Jergul: But I see you to a greater degree understand the nuance of Ukrainian children in Russian foster care. Murder took it from there.
Forwyn Member	Tue Mar 07 17:52:59 Not the definition. But if it were, which ones? There are at least three identified major migrations.
jergul large member	Wed Mar 08 02:16:51 Forwyn The ones you have treaties with in the US. Not that hard in your case. There were more groups, but, well, genocide.
jergul large member	Wed Mar 08 02:19:28 Nice terra maxus argument though. Terra nullus gets tedius after a few centuries.
murder Member	Wed Mar 08 07:34:32 "Missed the point there laddy. You have huge problems managing unaccompanied minors without a war going on. Russia and Ukraine are similarly also having trouble reuniting minors with their parents, with the added complexity of a war." No I didn't miss the point laddy. The Russians are making off with Ukrainian children the same way they are making off with Ukrainian washing machines. They are taking the children as hostages and for political leverage. You defending this can only be explained by ... well the US is supporting the other side.
jergul large member	Wed Mar 08 08:31:31 Murder That would be incorrect. But noted you think Russia should leave unaccompanied minors in combat zones. I am not defending Russian policies so much as I am beating back the batshit crazy you always spew on this topic. Russia and Ukraine should both reunite children with parents on the other side of the conflict zone. They have expanded that to include grandparents in principle. It is hard to imagine how more complex arrangements can be made at this juncture. For example, how is Ukraine supposed to recognize legal guardians appointed in Donbas by Russia supported local courts so a niece can reunite with her aunt and uncle?
murder Member	Wed Mar 08 11:46:34 "That would be incorrect. But noted you think Russia should leave unaccompanied minors in combat zones." There are no unaccompanied minors in combat zones. The only way they become "unaccompanied" is the Russians murdering the civilians that were caring for them.
jergul large member	Thu Mar 09 03:55:12 Murder Wrong. First off, a significant number of the evacuated children were in orphanages. Secondly, it is possible for families to become separated with parents remaining alive (for example one parent being abroad or in service, the other getting hospitalized). War is chaotic. Thirdly, Ukraine is also using munitions and killing civilians. It happens. Look at any war the US has fought. You rack up quite the civilian tally. It should be noted that the number of claimed unattended minors (60k) is way higher than the number of confirmed killed civilians (15k). The pre-war Ukrainian foster system was horrible btw. Any information on how it has improved over the last year of a war that includes degraded infrastructure and huge government deficits? http://www.bbc.com/news/disability-62226636
jergul large member	Thu Mar 09 04:11:35 The big issue here is the illegal annexation of territories. Russia treats children without parents or grandparents as if they are Russian nationals. That is the logic of its annexation. Russia has pre-existing laws banning adoption abroad (due to some horrific stories about Russian children adopted to the USA). Reuniting children with parents or grandparents is something that can be done now at least. Russia and Ukraine definitely should focus on streamlining that process.
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