Utopia Talk / Politics / The West cant do infrastructure anymore

Rugian Member	Tue Mar 14 05:09:57 The US completed its first transcontinental railway in the 1860s. 1,900 miles of track leading through inhospitable wilderness, desert, and mountains. Took six years to complete. Fast forward to today, and the UK is now saying that it will take nearly a quarter-century to complete HS2. http://www...nounced-by-british-government/ This is not progress.
Seb Member	Tue Mar 14 05:32:23 Rugian: You realise the delay is about funding right, not engineering? HMT has this idea that you set budgets over a 5 year period - so if you delay something it gets cheaper. Of course the reality is it gets more expensive over the lifetime because you spend longer time which, even at a lower rate of spend, ends up costing more.. And you delay benefit. But this is the problem with fiscal (small c) conservatives. They understand the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Rugian Member	Tue Mar 14 05:43:44 Seb The West having lost the ability to control costs on infrastructure projects is one of the primary reasons we can't do them anymore. Here in Boston, we recently completed a light rail extension project. Four miles of track along an EXISTING right-of-way already owned by the railroad authority, and it still cost nearly $500mm per mile of track laid. And that was only after significant VE and dial-back of project scope. In CA, same thing. The state wanted high-speed rail between SF and LA, but it couldn't keep control of the budget. Project costs spiraled out of control and now the only part of the line that's actually being built is between Merced and Bakersfield. Two places that no one even lives in. Excessive bureaucracy and regulations as well as entitlement, materials, and labor costs mean that we can't do infra anymore. If we want to change that, we need to do something about all of those things.
Rugian Member	Tue Mar 14 05:44:42 * permitting, not entitlement
Rugian Member	Tue Mar 14 05:46:54 Or we could just continue doing things the way liberals advocate, namely throwing ever-increasing amounts of money at these projects and believing that that will accomplish anything other than putting inflationary pressure on the price tag.
Seb Member	Tue Mar 14 07:09:19 Rugian: But that's the reason they go over budget. It'll cost Xbn to build this thing over 5 years. Hmm, what if I give you 80% of X over 5 years? Then it will take 8 years and cost X + 28% But over five years I care about, I'll pay 80% of X? Sure. Next five year budget window, rinde and repeat.
Seb Member	Tue Mar 14 07:12:46 Sure, there are other factors. But a lot of it is about funding models. And if you don't have a steady order book things go crazy too.
Seb Member	Tue Mar 14 07:13:49 Did anyone do a good report into where the cost increases arose?
murder Member	Tue Mar 14 09:16:15 "But this is the problem with fiscal (small c) conservatives. They understand the price of everything and the value of nothing." The exact same goes for big c Conservatives. At least in the US.
murder Member	Tue Mar 14 09:23:11 "The West having lost the ability to control costs on infrastructure projects is one of the primary reasons we can't do them anymore." We agree on something. Critical infrastructure projects of all sorts should be freed of the standard government contract restrictions. If the job can get done right, done faster, and done cheaper by hiring a bunch of Mexicans to do the work, then that's exactly what the government should do. And if they have to take someone's property or devalue the property of others to build build needed infrastructure, then just do it and tell the judiciary to stay in their own lane. And fuck the environment too. People that are harmed by having their property taken or devalued must be compensated ... but they shouldn't be able to hold up critical projects.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Mar 14 09:29:10 http://www...April-1992-March_tbl2_46448627 It’s not just infrastrcuture, megaprojects pretty much always run late and turn out more expensive.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Mar 14 09:35:36 "and it still cost nearly $500mm per mile of track laid." Thats downright cheap by seattle standards. Too many sebs around.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Mar 14 09:40:07 Google the construction costs on the new river gorge bridge. Amazing what we could do just a few decades ago. The blood of numenor is all but spent.
Seb Member	Tue Mar 14 10:57:52 Sam having worked to block public finance using cheap govt debt, slashed public sector wages, made public sector work low status, strips away laws that ensure UD firms actually compete with eachother, then wonders why public works can't get completed. The blood of numenor isn't spent so much as pissed up the wall by conservatives, and you were the grubby little bog troll holding their cock for them as they did it. And they didn't even tip you, you were just happy to think to were part of their team rather than help.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Mar 14 11:30:49 Swedish mega project run over just fine under social democrats.
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