Utopia Talk / Politics / Arrest warrant issued for Vladimir Putin

murder Member	Fri Mar 17 17:39:18 The International Criminal Court issues an arrest warrant for Putin The International Criminal Court has issued an arrest warrant for Russian President Vladimir Putin for alleged war crimes involving accusations that Russia has forcibly taken Ukrainian children. The ICC also issued a warrant for Putin's commissioner for children's rights, Maria Lvova-Belova. The court said in a news release Friday the two are "allegedly responsible for the war crime of unlawful deportation of population (children) and that of unlawful transfer of population (children) from occupied areas of Ukraine to the Russian Federation." The move by the criminal court at the Hague marked a significant step, requesting the arrest of a sitting world leader — even as analysts acknowledged the chances of arresting President Putin are slim. Indeed, in Moscow, officials were quick to note Russia has never signed on as a party to the ICC as they dismissed the charges outright. "The very question itself is outrageous and unacceptable," Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said. "Russia, like a number of other states, does not recognize the jurisdiction of this court, and therefore any of its decisions are insignificant for the Russian Federation from a legal viewpoint." Ukrainian Prosecutor General Andriy Kostin called the court's decision "historic." Like the United States, Ukraine is also not a party to the ICC. But Kostin noted that the Ukrainian government has cooperated with the court on criminal investigations in its territory. He said his office handed more than 1,000 pages of documents over to the ICC regarding the alleged forcible deportation of children to Russia. A report released last month by Yale University researchers and the U.S. State Department accused the Russian government of operating a systematic network of custody centers for thousands of Ukrainian children. Russian officials have not denied the arrival of Ukrainian children in the country, but have characterized the centers for children as part of a large humanitarian program for abandoned, war-traumatized orphans. The court warrant is a "stunning move" ICC President Piotr Hofmanski said the judges decided to make these warrants public to try to deter further crimes. "It is forbidden by international law for occupying powers to transfer civilians from the territories where they live to other territories," he said. "Children enjoy special protection under the Geneva Convention." Experts appeared surprised by the news. "I hoped [this would happen], but I didn't know it would be this quick," said Nathaniel Raymond, executive director of the Yale Humanitarian Research Lab. "This is a stunning move by the court, which has moved right to the top of the Russian state," said David Bosco, author of Rough Justice: The International Criminal Court in a World of Power Politics. However, Bosco cautioned, "The arrest warrant won't have immediate implications because no trial can move forward without Putin being in custody and there's no chance of that happening in the near future." Despite the difficulty of trying Putin, human rights advocates hailed the news as a major step. "This is a big day for the many victims of crimes committed by Russian forces in Ukraine since 2014," Human Rights Watch said in a statement. "With these arrest warrants, the ICC has made Putin a wanted man and taken its first step to end the impunity that has emboldened perpetrators in Russia's war against Ukraine for far too long." Amnesty International called on countries to deny safe haven for Putin and Lvova-Belova by arresting them and handing them over to the ICC. The organization also said it expects further arrest warrants for Russian leaders as Ukraine war crimes investigations develop. Russia discusses adopting Ukrainian children While Russia has vigorously rejected allegations of war crimes committed by its forces in Ukraine, it has made little secret of relocating Ukrainian children to Russia — presenting it as a noble humanitarian effort. President Putin hosted Lvova-Belova, the children's rights commissioner, for a meeting at the Kremlin in February in which the two openly discussed Russian adoption programs for Ukrainian children in occupied territories in Ukraine — including Lvova-Belova's new teenage son. A transcript of the conversation is posted on the Kremlin's website. "You also adopted a child from Mariupol, is that right?" asked Putin. "Yes, Vladimir Vladimirovich," Lvova-Belova responded, using the Russian leader's patronymic. "Thanks to you." It was a remarkable admission: Ukraine halted adoptions after Russia invaded the country, and international children's rights groups say countries have an obligation under international law to prohibit adoptions of Ukrainian children during wartime. Lvova-Belova noted that if biological relatives are found, her commission would work to return the children to their Ukrainian families, "wherever they are located, in Ukraine or another country." To which Putin said, "That's absolutely right." For the U.S., it's complicated Bosco, the international studies expert who wrote about the ICC, said the court's new case raises some uncomfortable questions for the United States, too. "This is going to be another awkward moment for the United States because of the U.S. position that the ICC should not be able to prosecute nonmember state citizens," Bosco said. The U.S. government has so far issued a measured response to news of the Putin arrest warrant. "There is no doubt that Russia is committing war crimes and atrocities in Ukraine, and we have been clear that those responsible must be held accountable," White House National Security Council spokesperson Adrienne Watson said in a statement to NPR. "The ICC prosecutor is an independent actor and makes his own prosecutorial decisions based on the evidence before him. We support accountability for perpetrators of war crimes." The U.S. has had a complicated, at times hostile relationship with the international court, especially since 2002 when former President George W. Bush unsigned the statute that created it. In 2020, the Trump administration leveled sanctions against the ICC's chief prosecutor at the time, who was investigating allegations that U.S. troops committed war crimes in Afghanistan. In the Biden administration, meanwhile, there are reports of an internal dispute: While the Justice and State Departments favor providing information to the international court about Russian atrocities, according to The New York Times, the Pentagon has blocked intelligence sharing with the court over concerns of setting a precedent that could allow for international prosecutions against Americans. http://www...tin-ukraine-alleged-war-crimes
murder Member	Fri Mar 17 19:12:53 It turns out that the ICC also doesn't believe jergul's bullshit about Russia only taking in unaccompanied children in the war zone. I mean Russia's bullshit. I mean the official story.
Paramount Member	Fri Mar 17 19:25:25 That they issue an arrest warrant for Putin, but not for Bush, Blair, Obama, Netanyahu and various of other shows that it is all about politics and not about justice.
Rugian Member	Fri Mar 17 20:38:14 "International Criminal Court" lol Ignored.
Y2A Member	Sat Mar 18 00:48:55 given the ICC's record, Putin can count on getting REM sleep tonight.
jergul large member	Sat Mar 18 01:48:47 Murder My story is that annexation is bad mkay, because it causes all kinds of irregularities. Even unilateral recognition of donbas as independent is bad for the same reasons. Evacuating unaccompanied minors to safe areas is not only legal, it is mandatory. But formally adopting minors from occupied areas is a warcrime. They are supposed to be repatriated when the conflict ends regardless. That logic is not followed by Russia as the logic of annexation says the occupied areas are Russia proper, so repatration is not relevant. What Russia and Ukraine try to do is repatriate children with close living relative abroad or on the other side of the contact line. Ukraine can also risk the similar charges btw. It is a warcrime to take a Russian speaking unaccompanied minor and assimilate it into an Ukrainian speaking environment. The problem there is that Ukraine only recognizes ICC jurisdiction for crimes Russia does. Ukraine is not actually formally part of the ICC, and the limited juristiction is has agreed to creates uncertainty to if the ICC has jurisdiction at all, or at least strongly suggests the ICC cannot have an unbiased role on Ukrainian territory. The ICC is at least perfectly clear on Putin being innocent. It highlights the presumption of innocence strongly on its website :D. This pretty much boils down to embarrassing the Russian Foreign Ministry. Which will have to ensure the warrant will not be enforced before Putin travels abroad. Nothing the US has not had to do to for other reasons though.
Seb Member	Sat Mar 18 04:18:54 Jergul: "But formally adopting minors from occupied areas is a warcrime. " This was all reported at the time and shown to you while you were rabbiting on about filtration camps.
Seb Member	Sat Mar 18 04:20:22 Oh and then to go on to try and argue that technically, by Russia's standards and world view, it's not actually kidnapping children. Lovely. "I'm not murdering this person, I'm elevating them to eternal life!"
jergul large member	Sat Mar 18 04:45:31 Seb It is fine that you cannot recall or understand the arguements. I am happy to rehash them time and time again. Filtration camps are a completely different issue and entirely legal in the way they are practiced. People in occupied areas are vetted before being let into Russia. Some are transferred to Ukraine directly, combatants become POWs (in principle, I dont know that this has happened), the rest go to Russia and can leave Russia any time they like. If they choose to stay, then they are supported by the Russian State if that is required, but are free to work and live anywhere they like. All rather above board frankly. With millions of Ukrainians in the West, surely you can see that people in Russian occupied areas also want to leave, right? Murdering people? The civilian death toll in this conflict is extremely low. Economic disruptions cause more trouble and are probably the main reason Ukrainians are leaving in any direction.
jergul large member	Sat Mar 18 05:00:10 Seb Russia has a duty to evacuate unaccompanied minors from the conflict. The question is what happens thereafter. Permanent adoption and resettlement of Ukrainian nationals is not allowed. Nor is it allowed to take away the children's language and culture (which would be an issue for unaccompanied children Ukraine evacuated from Donbas). Russian legislation cannot honour those principles because it considers the occupied areas part of Russia. Adoptions that occur would be based on national guidelines for the child services. The guidelines prohibit adoption abroad due to some truly horrible incidents with children adopted to the US. What Russia and Ukraine are trying to do is reunite children with close relatives no matter where those relatives are. Which is the good thing about this. Objectively, adoption in Russia would generally be way better for a child than an orphage in Ukraine that really suck (tons of articles about this prewar. Conditions are of course a hell of a lot worse now). The real question is to what extent defacto conditions should overrule the formal legality. Parts of Ukraine are culturally and linquistically Russian, have a high level of Russian support, and would likely vote to join Russia in free and fair referenda. What is the practical basis for sending unaccompanied minors from those areas to Ukraine? A caveat would be children anywhere in the occupied areas that are culturally and liquistically Ukrainian or who have close relatives they can go to. There would be a strong argument for repatriation to protected their heritage. Nice job lifting kids ahead of you. But at some point you sort of have to consider their wellbeing too.
williamthebastard Member	Sat Mar 18 14:03:03 It is quite heartwarming to see noble and humanitarian acts in all this misery, such as Ukraines successful efforts to reunite russian soldiers with their long gone grandparents at a spanking rate.
Pillz Member	Sat Mar 18 15:01:11 Imagine being as disconnected from reality as wtb
murder Member	Sat Mar 18 16:52:05 "Unaccompanied minors" ... in a war zone. That's some seriously irresponsible parenting.
jergul large member	Sat Mar 18 19:46:41 Murder Well, it is a moot problem at this point. The unaccompanied minors are currently accompanied. The huffha is about who is accompaniying them.
jergul large member	Sat Mar 18 19:49:05 WtB My gold standard is deaths reported in news outlets or social media. We know Ukraine definitely does not want anyone scrubing the internet for that kind of information. Any reason to believe that method of counting dead is horribly inaccurate besides the timelag?
Forwyn Member	Sat Mar 18 20:20:59 "That's some seriously irresponsible parenting." Perhaps they were trying to flee. Although fleeing cars tend to end up with everyone dead inside, including children. Then Ukrainian media calls them saboteurs
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