Utopia Talk / Politics / White people are not real Londoners

Rugian rank	Sun Aug 20 20:21:50 2023 Sadiq Khan’s office under fire for suggesting white families ‘don’t represent real Londoners’ The Labour London mayor was criticised over the message, which appeared as part of a guide to his brand Sadiq Khan was forced to distance himself from a claim on his website that a picture of a young white family “does not represent real Londoners”. The Labour London mayor was criticised over the message, which appeared as part of a guide to his and the Greater London Authority’s (GLA) brand. The guide opened with the words: “A City for All Londoners”, and promised to appeal to all ages, genders, sexual orientations and family make-ups. But a picture of a couple and their two children walking along the Thames, with parliament in the background, was highlighted as an example of pictures not to use. A label on the picture read: “Doesn’t represent real Londoners”. Mr Khan said the caption was added by a staff member “in error”, and does not reflect his view or the view of the GLA. “The document has now been taken off the GLA website and is being reviewed to ensure the language and guidance is appropriate,” a spokesman for the mayor said. http://www...or-race-row-ulez-b2396160.html
Rugian rank	Sun Aug 20 20:26:16 2023 In 1961 London was 98% white. Even by the 1980s, it was still over 86% white. Fast forward to today, and it's...under 37%. One has to wonder if Sadiq Khan is even worthy of criticism here. If anything, his office was making a simple factual observation. Great Displacement Theory is real.
Nimatzo rank	Sun Aug 20 20:53:56 2023 Seb said they were moving to a new house last year? I bet he fled the city the policy he supported helped created :)
obaminated rank	Sun Aug 20 21:00:22 2023 Well khan just done fucked up and revealed the real plot of Marxist ideology. They actively want to replace westerners who have western ideals and ideology. This is why they allow migrants to flood into cities, not to amalgamate them into society but to have them replace those pesky citizens who don't want their homes to be turned into a socialist whore house.
Forwyn rank	Sun Aug 20 21:59:23 2023 It is also why every corporate messaging is for strong independent women. They are naturally agreeable, so they either emulate their husband, or they emulate the hive mind. Keep them single and working a soulless corporate job for "freedom" and they'll keep voting for this.
Seb rank	Sun Aug 20 23:13:33 2023 Rugian: Actually 44% of Londoners identify as White British. Another 15% as White Other* - so in the 40 odd years between 1980 and today the proportion of the population identifying as white has gone from 86% to 60%. At the same time the population of London has increased from 6.8m to 8.8m - an increase of 30%. http://www...0British,%2C%20and%20Indian%20(7.0%25).7 So less "Great Replacement" and more just that a lot of people have emigrated to London due to the boom in the city from the 1980s. *a chunk of which will be Irish and Scottish folks who are making a point in the census - and of course white Europeans. To the extent there is a "replacement" of white people, it might have something to do with the fact that having more than 1 kid is really really hard to do unless you are prepared to sacrifice standards of life, in London at least. People who have migrated from poorer countries are prepared to make the trade off because it's still better than whether they were before. Things that a right wing govt that actually cared about "nativism" might consider: * Free or heavily subsidised childcare from 1 year old * Equal parental leave * Do something about the two fucking American based private fucking equity fucking firms (seriously, private equity firms!) that have bought up nearly all the nursuries in London, established a fucking monopoly, jacked up the fees to more than the average private fucking school, and slashed the fucking quality of care. * Have you seen food prices recently? Perhaps maybe do something about the high cost of food. Like not erecting a massive fucking trade barrier with where a great deal of our food comes from. * Housing, it's really fucking expensive, and people don't want to start a family when they are spending 60% of their disposable income on rent and trying to save for a deposit into their late 30's. * Get rid of the ban on people in council homes having a "spare room" (hint, if you don't have a room to start a family, and need to wait to move to a bigger house). *Not cap child benefits for families at two kids. actively penalising families for having a number of children that meets the required number for replacement rate seems a bad fucking idea if you have an ageing population, and don't want to have any immigration. Every single one of these problems is the result of 40 years of predominantly right wing govt policies - and even the modest changes Labour made to address some of these were then reversed by Cameron, May and Johnson. Basically, if you want more white people, stop making having more than two children so hard and difficult for families. People aren't engaging in "white flight" from black people, they are basically not migrating from the rest of the UK to London in large numbers due to the absolutely fucking ruinous housing costs, costs of living - and many that start families then move well outside London and commute in because houses are much cheaper (even more than spending 15k a year on train tickets). Nim: No I didn't. I haven't moved in 7 years, and the last time I moved it was from Zone 2 to Zone 4, to get a bigger house, and we actually miss the lack of diversity (wider range of international foods).
Nimatzo rank	Sun Aug 20 23:30:37 2023 I could have sworn you told us last year you were busy moving. You know I have a very good memory when it comes to these things. Still though from 2 to 6 with less diverse food is congruent with what I just said. That is by the way, quite a low bar for appreciating ethnic diversity, food.
TheChildren rank	Mon Aug 21 07:36:40 2023 what lie did sadi even said lol
Seb rank	Mon Aug 21 11:15:55 2023 Nim: No you have terrible memory for these things. You keep forgetting basic stuff I've corrected you on and weaving elaborate narratives and cod-psychology based on your errors. Within a column inch you've managed to forget I said zone 4 and and substitute zone, and take a zone 2 to zone 4 move (a distance of about 3.5 miles or about an hours walk) - and construe a reluctant move outward to obtain a bigger house and missing the lack of interesting food options with "fled to get away from migrants".
Cherub Cow rank	Mon Aug 21 11:26:54 2023 [Seb]: "and we actually miss the lack of diversity (wider range of international foods" lol! Seb did the meme! :D For those who haven't seen this, there's a left-wing cope meme where the left claims that they need diversity because it expands food options. It's basically cucked logic since they'll allow themselves to be absolutely conquered while saying that a kebob shop or a Pakistani smoke shop improve their neighborhoods (lol) — as though white people can't figure out how to put Garam Masala on potatoes and instead have to import millions of Indians and Pakistanis just to support restaurant options. Callum from Lotus Eaters makes the joke frequently, and he nods to it in this tour video of England where he shows how conquered they are by comparing the highest white percentage areas to the lowest (as expected, the highest white areas actually look like England): "Tourism In Merry Old England" [August 8th, 2023; 38 minutes] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIct4GjLFTE Incidentally, Lotus Eaters also make fun of cucked Seb-types who still believe that "the right" is responsible for the Great Replacement, since cucked British people still believe that the Conservative Party are conservatives (lol). Seb's inability to decipher the international totalitarian Regime is why he cannot see that Britain's enemies have infiltrated its governance and sold it to foreign powers. The Great Replacement is real, but for Seb you have to call it "demographic change" and believe that it's a good thing XD
Nimatzo rank	Mon Aug 21 11:32:23 2023 "No you have terrible memory for these things." Shameless lying, just like you lied about your professional life. "I said zone 4 and and substitute zone, and take a zone 2 to zone 4 move" You did, but this is you now autistically obsessing over meaningless details, that do not change anything relevant. You admitted to moving away from the city center, to a less diverse neighborhood. Tsk tsk tsk.
Cherub Cow rank	Mon Aug 21 11:40:51 2023 Sebbish Marxists talking about the strategy of Marxist representation in British advertisements: [Clown Planet; August 21st, 2023] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IByEwuRdjl4 As a reminder, the simple strategy in Marxist representation is to • represent your slave caste positively while burying their crimes, and • use representation to remove, degrade, or make enemies of the nobles that you're trying to defeat while highlighting their crimes. This defeats raw statistics, demoralizes the nobles into a slave morality, and makes the slave caste into a useful client group that can be used to destroy the nobles or provoke them into reactionary measures which can be further propagandized. This was the Bolshevik strategy in the Russian Revolution against the Kulaks, was used also by Radio Rwanda against the Tutsis, is used in current South Africa against the Boers, and we see it now largely in the West — as in the work of Sadiq Khan of the conquering Caliphate.
Rugian rank	Mon Aug 21 12:43:13 2023 Seb - "Actually 44% of Londoners identify as White British." This is based on the 2011 census. That figure declined by another 8% by the 2021 census. 8% in 10 years. Yikes. Re: your economic points...it's funny how English people were able to regularly procreate and produce their own food for thousands of years, and it's only in the last 70 that they've come to "need" massive amounts of government welfare in order to start a family. This would suggest that government overregulation and inflationary practices are to blame. But more seriously, the issue is more of a social than economic one. Simply put, the modern British society has taught generations of men and women that motherhood, marriage, and the nuclear family are contemptuous practices that should be looked down upon. Take marriages for example. None of your examples explain why marriage rates in the UK have been absolutely tanking in the past several decades. Fewer marries couples mean fewer homes able to raise children in a stable environment. Or how the marked decline in native births is directly correlated to the liberalization of abortion and contraception, not to mention the rise of secularism and women prioritizing careers in the workplace over family. Mass culture, including that pushed by your "Conservative" government, has made it virtually an act of sexism to believe in the role of traditional womanhood. The only people in your country who don't hold these views are the immigrants that were lucky enough to not be immersed in this modernist reprogramming during their formative years. The results are obvious: a full one-third of all births in your country now involve at least one foreign parent. This is willful demographic suicide. Economic incentives to encourage child-rearing would in theory be helpful, but the issues in your society are deeper than that (and also would just further contribute to inflation...a $10,000 subsidy for nurseries for example means that nurseries become $10,000 more expensive).
Rugian rank	Mon Aug 21 12:54:54 2023 And I find it absolutely fanciful the idea that the left-wing elements in your country are at all positioned to fix any of this. Intellectually, the British left is dominated by effete university graduates who have been taught to believe all the wrong things...a general dislike of one's country, feminism, social justice, and careerism. These people are more likely to advocate for human extinction in order to save the planet from climate change than they are for increased family sizes. Also, it's not just London that's being colonized. I don't find it a coincidence that the British press is increasingly accusing the countryside of being racist because too many white people live there (Dorset is 98% white! The horror). The CTer in me can't help but wonder as that being a factor in your "Conservative" government's bizarre decision to house migrant shelters in rural villages.
Cherub Cow rank	Mon Aug 21 13:49:50 2023 [Rugian]: "Economic incentives to encourage child-rearing would in theory be helpful, but the issues in your society are deeper than that" Yup, especially because under a Regime-captured government those incentives would be applied "equitably", meaning that they would be used specifically to further white replacement by directing those incentives above all to foreigners and useful client groups (i.e., the Regime's language of "equity" for the "marginalized"). A serious policy would be like what I mentioned in totalitarians #8: • "breeding incentives and breeding bans, such as not allowing immigrants of certain nations and ethnicities to out-breed white Westerners or denying citizenship beyond certain quantities" Britain would need to deny citizenship going back multiple generations, deny the franchise along the same grounds, place caps on immigrant welfare (e.g., zero welfare), incentivize increased birthrates specifically for native white British while dis-incentivizing for immigrants (again, going back multiple generations for an "immigrant" determination), mass-deport immigrants (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation; e.g., deport Sadiq Khan), and require that low-percentage white areas be "diversified" by offering affordable housing in those areas for white people while driving up prices for non-white immigrants. Which of these policies do the Tories fancy enough to enact? My understanding is that they're trapped in the left's game of having to pretend that there is no dysgenics war and that Britain's identity must be "inclusive" at the cost of its own genealogy.
Nimatzo rank	Mon Aug 21 13:52:05 2023 >>and construe a reluctant move outward to obtain a bigger house and missing the lack of interesting food options with "fled to get away from migrants".<< Textbook example of why you should judge people based on what they do and not what they say. Because apparently they don't have food delivery services in Zone 4, despite only being 1 hour *walk*. Nobody should trust the details here as per previous information of seb lying about very petty things. If he says zone 4, the truth is he probably doesn't even live in any of the zones, he is outside London. If he says 1 hour walk, the truth is 1 hour with car.
Seb rank	Mon Aug 21 14:03:27 2023 Rugian: You are still not comparing like with like. 36.8% white British 17.0% white Other 53.8% white "8% in 10 years. Yikes" The figures I quoted are from 2019 apparently. The changes are most likely to represent sampling biases. In theory the census should be more accurate, but the 2021 census took place almost entirely online for the first time - a huge change in sampling methodology - there are a lot of stats that show strong discontinuities from those calculated from the 2012 census baseline using supplementary analysis. 8 percentage point change in 3 years is not really credible - likely we are over counting minorities now (shift to online undercounting elderly white people) or were undercounting them before. I suspect the former. "were able to regularly procreate and produce their own food for thousands of years," The UK has had to rely on food imports for c. 200 years. The whole Irish potato famine was due to grain exports to England. "This would suggest that government overregulation and inflationary practices are to blame." So, your solution is that people should go back to living four families to a tennament block apartment. I don't think that's going to happen Rugian, just to please your sensibility. Unless you are going to have a forced breeding program, you are going to have to accept that people's standards are higher than they were and they aren't going to compromise on their quality of life to have more babies so you have a spreadsheet you feel more comfortable with. They aren't going to quit their jobs to do childcare for 5 years, they will just stop at the number of kids they can afford to send to nursery. If private sector isn't willing to pay wages on which a family can live comfortably in the style in which they want to with two babies, a stay at home mum/dad and one bread winner, that's not going to happen. They will simply have fewer kids. They aren't going to have a cot in the corner of their bedroom in a 1 bed flat, they will wait until they have 2 bed or house. And if interest rates are so high that this takes them to their 40s, then that's when they have their first kid. And that likely means they will have only 1 or 2. "None of your examples explain why marriage rates in the UK have been absolutely tanking in the past several decades" One of the things that triggers marriage is a "let's start a family" conversation. If that's not the cards, people just stay a couple. "Or how the marked decline in native births is directly correlated to the liberalization of abortion and contraception," Basically, then, the issue is people don't want babies. Why might that be? Could it be because we've made having children at replacement rate an incredibly expensive thing that directly competes with getting on the property ladder and establishing a middle class lifestyle?
Seb rank	Mon Aug 21 14:04:53 2023 Basically, if you are worried about not enough white babies, look to France for effective policies.
Seb rank	Mon Aug 21 14:08:24 2023 Here I am, surrounded by scores of early 30s to early 40s white middle class professionals who are all moaning about how they want another kid but can't afford it or are putting it off until they've got a house sorted. What could it be? tHe MaRxIsTs!! Go out into the countryside, much less a problem.
Cherub Cow rank	Mon Aug 21 14:22:26 2023 [Seb]: "What could it be? tHe MaRxIsTs!!" The SpongeBob meme as a thought-terminating cliché does not absolve you of your cowardice and your surrendering to your conquerors. Even as they continually feed you the lie of "immigration to fix GDP", propagandize white people into not breeding through media infiltration, disincentivize sovereignty and family, demolish Western principles, and talk past you about "legacies of colonialism" in a clear communication of the revenge fantasies that they are using to excite your nation's settler colonists, you pretend that interest rates and the Regime's own genocidal policies are proper solutions. You are so sick with their frame of reference that you cannot conceive of a scenario which prevents your annihilation.
Nimatzo rank	Mon Aug 21 14:25:54 2023 "Here I am, surrounded by scores of early 30s to early 40s white middle class professionals who are all moaning about how they want another kid but can't afford it or are putting it off until they've got a house sorted." Has about same value as when you say "we reluctantly moved..." Go look at these people vacation habits and hobbies. They are trapped in the dual income, no kids lifestyle. They can afford it just fine, they just don't want to make sacrifices. When the fuck ever has poverty stopped people from having kids? And I mean ABSOLUTE DIRT poor kind of poverty, not the dual income delusional poverty of middle class narcissists.
Seb rank	Mon Aug 21 14:29:37 2023 Nim: "Because apparently they don't have food delivery services in Zone 4, despite only being 1 hour *walk*." Well sure, takeout is an option. But who wants to do 20 minute drive or walk for an hour to pick up plantains, cassava and some okra because you can't get them doing the weekly shop? I think you are trying to be clever again nim. But don't. Your ambition outstrips your capabilities. In your rush to sound clever you've been to consider how people actually live. Ordering take out, going out for a meal locally spontaneously, and cooking a meal at home are different activities in a social context; not interchangeable substitutes. So yes, it's possible to find it a downside to a new location not to have the same range of food options while still being able to order in. FYI though, thanks to London traffic our old location is on the edge of what just eat/deliveroo will accept. I
Nimatzo rank	Mon Aug 21 14:36:11 2023 http://www...-expect-to-ever-have-children/ 56% state they just don't want kids. Of the 47% who state other reasons, 17% state financial reasons. Meaning the overwhelming majority, over 90%, state other reasons.
Nimatzo rank	Mon Aug 21 14:46:47 2023 [Dirty lying disgraced former scientist] It is too predictable that you would write 3 paragraphs responding to a passing comment about food delivery, so you we can put your lies behind us. Fact remains I was correct, you did move to a less "diverse" neighborhood, fleeing the problems you helped create. We judge people based on what they do, not the virtues they preach. You are the Liberal equivalent of a homophobic gay preacher.
jergul rank	Mon Aug 21 14:54:19 2023 "We judge people based on what they do" Speaking of. My 400 liter insulated (because reasons) hot composting tumbler arrives tomorrow. I deal with trash ;).
jergul rank	Mon Aug 21 14:55:08 2023 125 gallon* For you illiterates.
Nimatzo rank	Mon Aug 21 15:12:33 2023 I thought we agreed you would get a rifle :(
Nimatzo rank	Mon Aug 21 15:13:05 2023 [heart break emoji]
jergul rank	Mon Aug 21 15:29:22 2023 One does not exclude the other. But hunter's license first.
Seb rank	Mon Aug 21 15:45:26 2023 Nim: "In the US" So relevant to the UK how? "It is too predictable that you would write 3 paragraphs" Stop lying and baselessly accusing others of bad faith based on your own hallucinations, and I won't have to spend so much time correcting the holes in your logic.
Seb rank	Mon Aug 21 15:47:43 2023 "fleeing the problems you helped create." See the qualifier is wrong. We were looking for the same levels of diversity but an affordable 4 bed house. The problem is a lack of attractive period housing stock. Getting the time right twice a day doesn't mean the clock is working right.
patom rank	Mon Aug 21 17:00:25 2023 I'm wondering if London is having the same migration issue as Philadelphia had 60 years ago. 'White Flight' When post WWII so many moved to the suburbs as blacks from the south moved north to the cities. There was a thing called block busting where real estate brokers would buy a house and move a black family in to a white block. Which invariably started a stampede of whites selling ASAP before property values dropped out of sight. I don't know what the suburbs of London are like, just curious if they are having a building boom for those fleeing London.
Seb rank	Mon Aug 21 17:24:20 2023 Patom: No, that's not what is happening - the US is unusually segregated compared to other OECD countries, and the UK unusually desegregated. See these graphs. See figure 2. here https://ww...77-124a-472d-925a-fc794737d814 What you have is largely driven by housing costs and immigration. What DID cause a big boom in people leaving London was the rise of remote and hybrid working - there was a big spike of people leaving London during and post COVID to take advantage of the fact that what buys you a 2 bed flat in a high-rise in London will buy you a five bed house with several reception rooms and a massive garden in Kent. The demographics are simply that the population of London has grown a lot, it is the main place where immigrants to the UK wind up and is still a global city with a rather distinct economy and society to the rest of England. Meanwhile the UK birth rates have been below replacement rate for a bit - the combination of tuition fee debt (introduced and increased over the last 20 years), rising house prices (due to NIMBYism and conservative voters refusing to allow development of green belt combined with underinvestment in faster rail transport) and rising costs in nursery/child care costs (like I said, venture fucking capitalist firms creating an actual goddamn monopoly in nurseries!) combined with protracted slow wage growth (2010-2015 austerity, 2016-2023 Brexit and Covid induced crises) has effectively created a situation where a lot of young people are deferring or giving up on having children in order to get out of rented accommodation and get their own property. If you add a bunch of immigration such that the population grows by a third, and at the same time you have a bunch of old white people dying and young white people not having enough kids to fully replace the existing population then you get a shift in the %ages.
Seb rank	Mon Aug 21 17:26:58 2023 "if they are having a building boom" No - greenbelt and planning regs makes it hard to build new hosing stock in London suburbs. The main building boom is Londons Transport agency building lots of high rise blocks over train stations in transport Zones 2,3,4,5 and 6. Persistently, London and it's borough councils have missed the house building targets needed to keep up with population (and far too many new build apartments get bought as investments - either buy-to-let or speculatively by foreign investment portfolios).
earthpig rank	Tue Aug 22 00:45:39 2023 "None of your examples explain why marriage rates in the UK have been absolutely tanking in the past several decades. Fewer marries couples mean fewer homes able to raise children in a stable environment." Marriage and baby making rates go down as human development go up. Education, opportunity, and so on. "Or how the marked decline in native births is directly correlated to the liberalization of abortion and contraception, not to mention the rise of secularism and women prioritizing careers in the workplace over family." All those correlates are also symptomatic of education, opportunity, and so on. Immigrants fresh off of the boat in a highly developed country, from some shitty area, will continue to make babies at higher rates for several generations. Eventually they will slow down with the baby making, as each successive generation gets more of that good stuff (economic opportunities beyond working 70 hours/wk at a "diverse" restaurant they started, that btw @CC existing natives aren't willing to do for that similar level of pay, which is why you don't get white folks running badass Chinese food restaurants in America [IDK how you feel about that panda place, so maybe you will disagree]). No conspiracy is needed. I also don't have a solution. South Korea is suffering from the same demographic phenomenon, and are decidedly not a bunch of lefties. You can produce a high quality of life with left wing *or* right wing policies, the outcome of "people aren't making as many babies" is the same (the other extreme tail end, when gov't/economy/life is sufficiently bad, people *also* do not make babies, due to malnourishment etc). Great replacement isn't a conspiracy, it's a left wing solution (immigration) to the problem that if society and gov't and the economy are doing "too well" for several generations in a row, people make babies less. I'm not particularly conservative, so I do not need a grand conspiracy narrative or moral high ground, so I can stop there. Casually surveying the right wing solutions to "people aren't making enough babies," I come across 1) don't allow immigration and accept demographic collapse (?), 2) make lives shittier so they will make more babies (this has at times also been a left-wing solution, see Romania during the cold war), basically force people backwards in time/opportunity/economy/etc. Leave all the moral grandstanding and fuzzy morality notions and conspiracy theories out of it. When quality of life is too high for several generations in a row, people stop making babies, in particular they fall below the sustainment rate of baby making (2.01 to 2.1 kids per woman, give or take). What's the right wing solution I have not thought of?
earthpig rank	Tue Aug 22 00:47:16 2023 Keep in mind the idea is that if there is a viable right wing solution, then you can cut off immigration. As one of the causes of inflation, Republican Jerome Powell, who is conservative, well informed (smarter than 9/10ths of Congress), but NOT subject to popular vote or popular opinion (so decent reason to expect him to be more honest than others in DC, unless you think him a lizard person), cited the drop of immigration that happened during COVID. Not enough new immigrant people willing to do cheap labor was one of the causes of inflation he pointed to.
patom rank	Tue Aug 22 00:54:51 2023 Well if the right wing here in the US has their way, the low white birth rate will jump. They seem hell bent in entering into the birthing business. Pretty soon, if given the power they'll outlaw birth control pills. Force women to produce a minimum number of babies.
Cherub Cow rank	Tue Aug 22 08:36:46 2023 [ep]: "No conspiracy is needed." More ep myopia. He says this while repeating Regime talking points about how you should "allow immigration" [or] "accept demographic collapse". This is the same Marxist delusion I repeatedly point out that ep uses whenever ep shows up in UP with his months old DNC talking points for a quick smash-and-grab: it is the lie of historical cycles and historical inevitability. For instance: [ep]: "Marriage and baby making rates go down as human development go up. Education, opportunity, and so on." This is the lie told by the acolytes of the liberal city. The delusion typically goes that cities themselves necessarily make people more liberal. This is false and is plainly pointed out in Marshall McLuhan's explanations of the media as message and in postmodern critiques of architecture and city-planning (particularly the classic example of Napoléon razing Paris so that only standing armies would have power in its streets — a scheme favorable for his consolidated control schemes). Without the jargon: the *designers* of cities determine the political outcomes of cities, and it is only a *recent* phenomena of the West's totalitarian age that cities have been constructed to create slave castes (i.e., constructed to fulfill the circular lie of the "inevitable" liberal city). City designers began doing this as a way to totalize control of their populations. We see this in the outer arrondissement slums, for instance: mass-produced boxes for mass-produced slaves imported to serve conquering oligarchs. In the Age of Enlightenment and in the Greek city-states, city design was favorable to the sovereign and the family, who ordered their streets to favor family gods and Thermopylae defense tactics (i.e., sovereignty through narrow power wherein a few defend against many). Modern conservative cities similarly arrange themselves in a way which elicits sovereignty, promotes familial relationships, and therefore cultivates high birth rates. This most often occurs by having those of noble morality be the designers and city-planners. Power is denied the slave, for his morality corrupts the city. The flaw of the modern liberal city is that it is designed to empower the slave. It is this circular logic which spells its defeat; the slave believes that slavery is inevitable because he himself built a city for slaves. This is the open office plan, the 15-minute city, the WEF "hub", and the "sustainable" longhouse of the devouring mother. It is not that marriage and child rates go down with human development, it is that enslavers infiltrate human development to create slaves, crashing the lifeblood of civilization. Societies which disempower slaves and enslavers empower those who have a will for life and so they multiply. So you might want to ask why it is appropriate for nihilists and Saturnalian worshipers of death to be allowed to design cities and to hold political office within those cities. Whereas it might occur to you, when living in a healthy city, that it is not prosperity which sickens you into evading children but is instead those who poison your prosperity with their sickness. -=-=- Just liberal inevitability, I guess. Couldn't have happened any other way: "Reported gunshots were fired at a Derbyshire sports contest where three people were injured and a man was attacked with a sword yesterday." [August 21st, 2023] http://twitter.com/DVATW/status/1693591494282575872
earthpig rank	Tue Aug 22 10:43:13 2023 Cool story bro. But it's just story telling, generative narratives. AI is vastly more coherent and to the point. 1. Nihilistic Disillusionment: Nietzsche's philosophy often challenges traditional values and belief systems. In the context of city design, a grand conspiracy that enforces a specific, monolithic worldview might lead to a sense of nihilistic disillusionment among individuals. If the city's design restricts personal freedoms and stifles individual expression, people might grow disillusioned with societal norms, leading to a lack of motivation to start families and perpetuate the status quo. 2. Erosion of Vitality: Nietzsche's concept of the "will to power" suggests that individuals seek self-affirmation and the realization of their potential. A city designed according to a conspiratorial plan might hinder the expression of individuality, resulting in a sense of powerlessness and diminished vitality among its inhabitants. This erosion of personal vitality could translate into reduced motivation for procreation and raising children. 3. Degeneration of Values: Fascist ideologies often emphasize a perceived cultural or racial purity, which can lead to exclusionary practices. If a grand conspiracy enforces such ideologies in city design, it could result in the exclusion or marginalization of certain groups. This exclusion could create a culture of resentment and bitterness, making it difficult for individuals to find common ground and foster relationships, ultimately affecting birth rates. 4. Artificial Hierarchy and Alienation: Nietzsche criticized traditional morality for promoting herd mentality and suppressing individual potential. A conspiracy-driven city design that enforces rigid hierarchies and societal roles might contribute to feelings of alienation and thwart individual aspirations. This artificial hierarchy could discourage people from forming families, as they may not see a place for themselves within such a controlled system. 5. Loss of Cultural Diversity: Nietzsche celebrated cultural diversity as a wellspring of creativity and human flourishing. A city design conspiracy that seeks to homogenize culture and suppress diversity could lead to a cultural stagnation that discourages the next generation from seeing a meaningful purpose in starting families. 6. Psychological Repression: Both Nietzsche's philosophy and certain fascist ideologies recognize the importance of psychological well-being. A city design conspiracy that places too much emphasis on control and surveillance might lead to psychological repression and a sense of constant scrutiny. This environment could result in stress, anxiety, and depression, factors that are known to impact birth rates.
Seb rank	Tue Aug 22 12:06:54 2023 A conspiracy of town planners is easier to accept than that true situation of emergency. (i.e. capital L) Liberalism that underpins both the centre-left and the right (and libertarians) has basically put is in a world where the soft-AI of companies and markets shapes cities in ways that are not great for families. Why do we end up with lots of 1 or 2 bed houses? The demand for new homes tends to be driven by young, mobile populations that are largely single - attracted to the city for work opportunities. Construction and developers like these kind of properties because they get a lot of asset for less input (land and construction materials). Young people do not have so much cash, older people with savings like to buy these properties and extract rents. Because property is fundamentally location based (you chose where you live largely based on which neighbourhood you want to be in and access to work, house prices are driven primarily by interest rates: sellers will charge a price that corresponds to what the average buyer of that property will be able to finance. This racks up the price of housing, and means that housing supply tends to be inimical to starting families. When people want to start a family, they struggle to establish a down-payment (because rents absent rent control will tend to be higher than the equivalent mortgage payment, while employers will tend to pay as low as they can get away with) to move to a bigger house. While doing that, they defer starting a family. Where attempts to build more family friendly housing in suburbs where their may be land available, they tend to be thwarted by people who fear that building more houses will reduce the price of their own home, driving up borrowing costs by changing LTV. None of this is a conspiracy. It is just lots of independent agents acting selfishly to optimise for their immediate concerns. Similarly, a private equity firm is free to buy up all the nurseries knowing it can then establish a monopoly on which people do not have a choice but to use. They can rack up fees to just below the point where it becomes economically foolish for both parents to continue working. And so they do that. The problem isn't a secret policy being pursued by evil folks, it is because a reductionist Liberalism often produces failure-of-collective-action problems. THIS IS WHY WE HAVE GOVERNMENT IN THE FIRST PLACE. *Rent controls *Competition Authority intervention *Subsidised child care *Fewer planning restrictions that allow locals to stop development *More direction to force developers to build the houses key segments need and want, not the ones that maximise returns (N,B. Rent controls will help this too). These are all measures antithical to the Neo-Liberal economic consensus. The reason we have these problems is misidentification of the causal roots of problems by people that approach this stuff philosophically rather than pragmatically. "Because the diagnosis suggests a prescription that I disagree with for being ideologically impure, instead I will invent a false diagnosis, and double down on the policies that have demonstrably failed."
Seb rank	Tue Aug 22 12:07:17 2023 ^This at EP - in shared exasperation.
Seb rank	Tue Aug 22 12:07:49 2023 *true situation of emergence.
earthpig rank	Tue Aug 22 19:27:10 2023 @Seb, I think there's some interesting compare/contrast to do here. I'll take what you wrote, and supply the US version. "Why do we end up with lots of 1 or 2 bed houses? The demand for new homes tends to be driven by young, mobile populations that are largely single - attracted to the city for work opportunities." In the US, we end up with lots of 3-4 bedroom houses. Young people complain that there are very few "starter homes." The 1 or 2 br that does exist is regarded as overpriced due to lack of supply of homes like that relative to demand. "Construction and developers like these kind of properties because they get a lot of asset for less input (land and construction materials)." In the US, the narrative is that developers like 3-4 bedroom houses because bedrooms are dirt cheap to build, relative to bathrooms, and especially kitchens. So a way to maximize profit is to attach as many value-adds, to as few kitchens, as possible. And that means you push the 4th bedroom as a "bonus room," or "guest room," or the COVID edition is a "home office." If the market or available space dictates that you HAVE to do 3br, fine. "house prices are driven primarily by interest rates: sellers will charge a price that corresponds to what the average buyer of that property will be able to finance." That's symptomatic of the fact that y'all never adjusted to a fixed rate mortgage system after 2008. I understand that you call it a "fixed rate" mortgage if it's fixed for the first 2-5 years, adjusting thereafter, and you optionally re-mortgage after that into another one that's, once again, fixed for the next 2-5 years, adjusting thereafter. We call those adjustable rate mortgages, because the rates... adjust. And sellers do not charge a price that corresponds to anything, they charge the highest price the market will bear. Our sellers are doing great, and our buyers are fucked for a long time to come, because so many homeowners/sellers have their 2.5% or 3% locked in for the full 30 years, they aren't in a big rush to move, especially because the extra bedroom and nicer kitchen on the new house will mean swapping out that 2.5% for 7.5% -- suddenly they don't hate the kitchen THAT much, and the kids can share a room for now (or we will convert the office into a bedroom and move our desks to the den, or we'll just not have a guest room, whatever), we aren't selling, we'll stay put, "you can pry my 2.5% from my cold dead fingers." So in our context, naturally high rates has reduced demand, but it has ALSO reduced supply, which is how our generic single family homes have largely stagnated in value (rather than drop) even though mortgage rates have gone up 3x in 18 months. "Similarly, a private equity firm is free to buy up all the nurseries knowing it can then establish a monopoly on which people do not have a choice but to use. They can rack up fees to just below the point where it becomes economically foolish for both parents to continue working. And so they do that." Surely you have some legislation that protects against such things? The EU is in a tizzy over Microsoft buying a video game company, but the UK is fine with one firm having a monopoly on *childcare*??! Is one of the big advantages of the EU or an EU like system that it's so convoluted, and power so insulated/spread, that corporate capture is harder?
earthpig rank	Tue Aug 22 19:43:20 2023 The UK, if my understanding is correct, also has much better light rail systems than mid and large cities in the US. After WW2, the auto makers "helped" many/most of our mid and large cities "upgrade" their light rail systems to bus systems. The light rail was mostly torn up. Our big cities still have their subways, but the light rail that would have, and arguably should exist, is never going to happen. My personal house is a few houses down from a light rail easement from before ww2 that will likely never be built. So instead of a 1 hour light rail commute for "Consumer Joe," Consumer Joe in the US has a nicer car and spends that hour each way driving. Which in turn leads to more spread out cities, which makes the 4 bedroom more economical than the 2 bedroom, with the 3 bedroom perhaps being the overlap. Natives of both the UK and US, who have been here many generations, are fairly unwilling to "pack 'em in" and stuff a bigger family into a smaller home (kids relative to bedroom count). But the first generation immigrants, and those "left behind" in terms of human development (inner city persons of color in the US), are more willing to do so. The hypothesis test would be to see if the rate of female baby making, among those who have been in the US and UK for several generations of access to various goodies, is significantly different. If so, this would point to a vastly greater need for immigrants in the UK than the US. Not because of a nefarious intentional conspiracy of town planners to replace white people (this would be truly a brilliant set of conspirators, to have been planning all of this 70 years ago!), but because (among other things) the auto makers "helped" to "upgrade" US city transit by demolishing the light rail lines, while being unable to "help upgrade" the light rail in the UK (the conspiracy version is that the evil white replacement lizard people *were* able to stop the auto makers' "transit 'upgrade' help" in the UK, but *weren't* able to pull off that coup in the US?).
earthpig rank	Tue Aug 22 19:46:44 2023 I wish I had access to the discourse of this sort of thing in Japan, Italy, France, etc, so I could get a sense of those places.
Seb rank	Tue Aug 22 21:21:36 2023 EP: I'm talking about London - so you have to consider two factors: 1. driving in from the suburbs is not a transport option. 2. we have something called the green belt - which basically rings the city in land that cannot be developed. So land is the key issue - if that constraint was lifted, 3-4 bed houses might be more lucrative than flats.
Seb rank	Tue Aug 22 21:29:17 2023 "And sellers do not charge a price that corresponds to anything, they charge the highest price the market will bear." Which corresponds to whatever amount the median buyer can afford to finance - roughly 1/3 post tax income. Again, not through nefarious scheming and price fixing - just emergent behaviour of a system of locally optimising agents. RE fixed mortgages - the way your financial system works makes it easier for lenders to make that model work. I'm not sure why UK lenders haven't figured that out. Might be something to do with the dollar reserve status. "Surely you have some legislation that protects against such things?" Yes, but nurseries are below the level of notice of the Competitions and Markets Authority. It's essentially a local problem, and the CMA doesn't get involved in every purchase of a tiny business like a nursery or corner shop. They focus on very large systemic industries. The idea that a foreign Private Equity firm would create a regional monopoly on nurseries is not something they have bothered to plan for.
earthpig rank	Tue Aug 22 22:21:44 2023 "RE fixed mortgages - the way your financial system works makes it easier for lenders to make that model work. I'm not sure why UK lenders haven't figured that out. Might be something to do with the dollar reserve status." It was an invention that was part of FDR's New Deal. Facing a socialist revolution from the left and fascists on the right, the New Deal included the invention of Fannie Mae, which would buy true fixed rate mortgages, package them up, and re-sell them, as a clearing house. Concurrently placating a lot of people on both the extreme left and right. If you want a fixed return that's a little higher than what a standard gov't bond offers, with a little higher risk, you buy a US Mortgage Backed Security.
Cherub Cow rank	Sun Aug 27 12:26:25 2023 [ep]: "Cool story bro. [/] But it's just story telling, generative narratives. [/] AI is vastly more coherent and to the point." I thought about putting a note at the end of my post about how ep is too pathetic to read my post, understand it, or respond with any kind of demonstration that he has an IQ over 90, but I thought that I might leave that prediction on the editing room floor to see if he is at all capable of rising to any occasion in the absence of the insults that he deserves. And he responds with, "Cool story bro" and a copy&paste that he lazily retrieved from an A.I. program which he clearly had to manipulate to favor his subjective weaknesses. You can even see how lazily ep generated his prompt, which apparently included the Regime's thought-terminating cliché about this being "conspiracy theory", based on these sample items that he pulled (presumably) from ChatGPT: • 1. "a grand conspiracy" • 2. "a conspiratorial plan" • 3. "a grand conspiracy" • 4. "A conspiracy-driven city" • 5. "A city design conspiracy" • 6. "A city design conspiracy" So tell us, ep, you low-IQ commie useful idiot who is too weak and impotent to do anything but serve totalitarian destroyers while stupidly and ignorantly claiming that "That's not happening and it's good that it is!", how many words can you read before you give yourself an excuse to stop reading? If I call you a fucking idiot, is that a stopping point? If I open with, "I thought about", is that too many words? Did you make it to the second sentence, or zone out at the first? Did you again give yourself the excuse that you don't have to bother responding if I insult you — even though the insults begin when you yourself surrender to your stupidity and I call you out for that stupidity — you dimwitted nihilist? And when you generated your prompt, did you say some kind of retardation such as, "Give 6 short examples of what Nietzsche would say about a grand conspiracy to design cities to decrease birth rates through a monolithic worldview"? • Just how low are your verbal communication skills, you absolute cretin? • When you look in the mirror, do you recognize a coward? • When you fall repeatedly into the deterministic fallacy of historical inevitability, does evading cognitive dissonance *demand* that you be too stupid to read past the first words of any counter-argument? • Just how much Vagisil do you consume to prove to us that you are the most retarded person present and therefore the most fit to go on a 2-month circuit where you visit UP, say something retarded, get called a retard, fail to respond with words that disprove your retardation, then bail to your echo chamber for more DNC talking points that show how pathetically low-information you are on all political subjects? Ep, of course, is too fucking retarded for any of this to have reached him, but we'll see him again in a couple months for more of his brain diarrhea! See you soon, ep! :D
Seb rank	Tue Aug 29 11:12:18 2023 That's a very long winded way of saying you are upset EP didn't give your post the consideration you mistakenly believe it should be given.
Cherub Cow rank	Wed Aug 30 11:50:35 2023 Oh look, another cowardly little bitch has nothing to say before he pisses his diaper and asks for mommy to clean up. :)
Nimatzo rank	Wed Aug 30 12:11:54 2023 It's HER penis, you uncouth bastard! -seb
jergul rank	Wed Aug 30 12:38:03 2023 What is with the coward stuff? It kind of infers you think you are brave or something. What bravery have you done lately?
Cherub Cow rank	Wed Aug 30 14:36:59 2023 [jergul]: "What is with the coward stuff?" Cowardice is calling anything that you do not want to reconcile a "conspiracy theory" or "CT". Cowardice is perpetually adopting the frame of a totalitarian Regime which has nothing but disdain for the compliant people of which it ultimately intends to dispose. Cowardice is falling for every single logical failing that was warned about explicitly in "1984", "Brave New World", "Fahrenheit 451", "The Gulag Archipelago", "We", and a dozen other works — and caring not a bit for the wretchedness that this obedience brings to the heart! Cowardice is avoiding all of your opposition's arguments and instead inputting a straw man argument into ChatGPT and not even realizing that ChatGPT accidentally told some truths that you did not want to hear. Cowardice is Seb — his very being, his every waking moment, his entire bureaucratic mind. And what have *I* done lately? Do I fall for thought-terminating clichés like the pathetic leaches of society — the Sebs, the Jerguls, the TWs, the EPs? No. Even the ugliest "conspiracy theories" I decide to entertain and examine. Few care to examine the true sources of society's downfall, but I do — and joyously! :D
jergul rank	Wed Aug 30 14:53:53 2023 CC What novel definions.
Seb rank	Wed Aug 30 14:59:57 2023 CC: "has nothing to say" I think that's what I just accused you of CC.
Seb rank	Wed Aug 30 15:00:22 2023 But top marks for getting that in under 500 words. Hope for you yet.
Seb rank	Wed Aug 30 15:03:33 2023 CC: "Cowardice is calling anything that you do not want to reconcile a "conspiracy theory" or "CT"." And bravery is defined then as incorrectly and simplistically adopting the mindset that everything can be explained by "a bad person did it, we just need get rid of the bad people and get back to the fundamentals" rather than understanding that a lot of what is wrong with the world arises from emergent properties of systems full of people making siloed decisions in a way that you consider an unchallengeable virtue.
Cherub Cow rank	Wed Aug 30 15:16:00 2023 [Random Coward]: "And bravery is defined then.." Absolutely abysmal straw man. [Random Coward]: "I think that's what I just accused you of CC." And it was a pathetic projection, shitstain. You, being weak, are incapable of producing anything but the Regime's latest bile. Even you, pathetic as you are, must know in that little piece of yourself that still exists independent of the Regime's cloaca, that you are mentally incapable of a joyous work and that I exceed you in your every effort. You are entirely incapable of a strong word. Even when you search for a metaphor by trying to recollect some forgotten poetry, you can only obfuscate and distort into your own paralysis — since there exists no strong will within you. I feel strongly about everything because I am alive. You have already died, with your body merely resigned to digging with your daily sinecure your own grave.
Seb rank	Wed Aug 30 15:39:32 2023 CC: "Absolutely abysmal straw man." And dismissing every opinion, proposition or argument that conflicts with your own as being the tainted produce of a non-existent "Regime" isn't? You don't engage with arguments. You just say "the voice of the regime! ipso facto lies! The bad men did it, and you parrot them!". Soon you will move onto the next stage "The way to fix the world is to get rid of the bad men.". This is a path of simplistic, reductionist thinking that eventually leads to "To get rid of the bad men we need to kill them all, and all who we believe to follow them". This is the way it goes. The only question is how far down that path you go, or if at any point you cease the frantic displacement activity of hunting for proof of the theories you've absorbed from others (a form of cloud gazing you mistake for intellectual activity) and ACTUALLY think a bit for yourself. "I feel strongly about everything because I am alive." You feel strongly about everything because you have trained yourself to feed your emotional state for the easy dopamine hit rather than the hard one of actually achieving something.
Seb rank	Wed Aug 30 15:41:42 2023 A sustained and active system of building confirmation bias isn't the same thing as thinking. It is quite the opposite. Though it can require a fair bit of the same kind of activities that may look and feel like similar.
Nimatzo rank	Wed Aug 30 16:46:18 2023 "jergul large member Wed Aug 30 07:53:53 CC What novel definions." The guy who has redefined everything from "theocracy/Islamic republic" to evolutionary theory. Gave me a good laugh :D
Cherub Cow rank	Thu Aug 31 12:58:22 2023 [Random Coward (Seb)]: "A sustained and active system of building confirmation bias isn't the same thing as thinking. It is quite the opposite. Though it can require a fair bit of the same kind of activities that may look and feel like similar." You should post that in tw's threads, you absolute coward :D In fact, I'll do it for you. :) [Random Coward (Seb)]: "And dismissing every opinion, proposition or argument that conflicts with your own as being the tainted produce of a non-existent "Regime" isn't?" Oo! Another straw man to counter my claims of him using straw man arguments! Very Sebbish! :D It's also particularly pathetic, since I never simply "[dismiss]" your arguments; I draw a direct connection between them and the totalitarians who have obliterated your conscience and then thoroughly dismantle those arguments. :) Also hilarious that you think the Regime is "non-existent". lol. You have some amazing surprises coming your way, Seb, though most Sebbish/boiling frogs have likely lost the ability to perceive them. :D [Random Coward (Seb)]: "You don't engage with arguments. You just say "the voice of the regime! ipso facto lies! The bad men did it, and you parrot them!"." Oo! More straw man argument! :D The hilarious thing would be if Seb really believes this, since, again, statements such as this reduce him to Poe's Law, where he's either retarded (really believes this) or trolling (pretending to be a person who is retarded enough to believe this).. For him there exists no distinction between the two, since even in the case of trolling it would still be that he has practiced being retarded for so long that it has made him truly retarded. :) [Random Coward (Seb)]: "This is a path of simplistic, reductionist thinking that eventually leads to "To get rid of the bad men we need to kill them all, and all who we believe to follow them"." Weird that Seb would say that while talking in a thread where the demonstrable truth of the Regime intentionally killing and replacing native British has been spelled out to him. It's almost like... he refuses to believe that he's in the middle of a genocide against his people — his people having been reduced to the world's enemy, necessitating, by their reckoning, the settler colonialism of Western societies by new and ever-more savage client groups. :) You see, Seb's "whiteness" is quite "problematic", but don't worry, Seb! Rishi Sunak and the other infiltrators within your government will keep killing all of you because of "simplistic" and "reductionist" thinking about how you should not get to live in your own nation — and you will say that it is not happening! :D "Cower and hide. / Any culpability denied. / All will imply it's an illusion, a fallacy. / So when you die, / Remember we said it's not reality," — Meshuggah, taking the voice of the destroyers, describing the cost of letting your reason sleep [Random Coward (Seb)]: "The only question is how far down that path you go, or if at any point you cease the frantic displacement activity of hunting for proof of the theories you've absorbed from others (a form of cloud gazing you mistake for intellectual activity) and ACTUALLY think a bit for yourself." lol :D Sure, Seb. Keep thinking that it's "cloud gazing" while I correctly describe things that are happening and show that those things are indeed happening via primary sources. I don't even have to worry about your impotent and cowardly insults here about my sourcing since I know that you literally cannot read anything I've written beyond the first sentence, and you cannot even click primary sources when I post them (repeatedly) for your convenience.. You, being a coward, always have an excuse as to why your time is better spent doing far, far less. You are so tiny in spirit that you consider it to be more worth your time to obfuscate in petty arguments than to ever read, comprehend, and evaluate a single steel-man argument I ever make. In other words, you do not even know my steel-man arguments since you are too lazy to read (by your own admission you do not read them!). Thus, as I have pointed out before, your judgments of me are on the level of the probing guesses of a poor student who did not do the reading but insists on answering the teacher's questions as though he did. [CC]: "I feel strongly about everything because I am alive." [Random Coward (Seb)]: "You feel strongly about everything because you have trained yourself to feed your emotional state for the easy dopamine hit rather than the hard one of actually achieving something." lol :D Seb, of course, had to mis-interpret my statement as the straw-man argument of "emotion" rather than correctly interpreting conviction, cognitive intuition, a will to life, and a joyous and relentless seeking of the truth — all things so foreign to him that he could not glean them were he in a temple to such glories. :D And his statement again does not even make sense against my steel-man arguments! :D (And again, this is because he does not even *know* my arguments!) More specifically, he claims I pursue "the easy dopamine hit rather than the hard one of actually achieving something", yet to make such a faulty statement he would have to ignore.. 1) His own projection here, since **he** prefers the dopamine of his pathetic responses to me rather than any strong attempt at comprehension and cognitive effort, 2) the extensive and well-researched articles I have continuously produced as demonstrable achievements. Seb has no such achievements. He has written no article to disprove my claims. He has written no statement that disproves even one of my steel-man arguments. He is mentally incapable. Seb, the greatest treasure I take from having these interactions with you is knowing that while I get to laugh at the cowardice that has brought you into your unexamined, bureaucratic, flavorless, gravedigger life.. you, on the other hand, wake up every day as a coward. You cannot escape these things at which I get to laugh in passing. Your cowardice is written into your every deed. :) And worse still! Your cowardice runs so deeply that you cannot even read my words to overcome it! How much of this did you scan to evade this window into your dying soul! XD
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