Utopia Talk / Politics / Gaza: Veni, vidi, vici

Rugian Member	Mon Nov 13 08:01:55 Link to previous http://uto...hread=92317&time=1699881237266
Seb Member	Mon Nov 13 09:43:07 Rugian: "Then at best, the people using that phrase are ridiculously stupid." Arguably, also shockingly ignorant. But look at you! "Taken literally, FROM the river TO the sea rather strongly suggests a territory that encompasses the modern state of Israel." Yes, but also Gaza is on the Sea and the West Bank is on the river, and the campaigners want both to be free. This is less explicit than the Likud charter of "only Israeli sovereignty". "Whatever the founders of that phrase intended for it to mean, in current usage it very easily can be (and is) interpreted as a call to destroy Israel and its people." Yes I agree, which is why I think it is a mistake to use it, but its ambiguity is such that I don't think you can take it to be a hate crime, much in the way "They will not replace us" or "White lives matter" also don't make the cut. "To claim that Israel shares Hamas' appetite for genociding its enemies is nonsense." I would refer you to Max Hastings interview of Netenyahu who has been very clear throughout his political career and before that these kinds of conflicts should be used to "clear" the land of Palestinian's by making them inhospitable. The same question "but where will the current inhabitants go?" can be asked, and the assumption that they will, substantially, be expected to die of not directly then indirectly is absolutely the case. Israel has spent the last decade trying to make living in Gaza impossible by restricting access to vital materials including access to health. It systematically targets hospitals but has not presented detailed credible intelligence to media or international fora in the way that, f.ex. the US has done. There's a strong case that their actions meet the thresholds for genocide. The same actions that Serbian forces took in Kosovo and in Bosnia were judged to be genocide. "Israel's "genocide" of Palestinians is so inefficient" Efficiency isn't the test in law for genocide. "Clearly, any mazimilist rhetoric used in Israel is not being put into practice." Uh, it clearly is. "Some protesters I'm sure are generally just naive pacifists." If by some you mean well over 90%, sure. "But too many of these rallies have prominently featured out and out hate speech." Any is too much. But I'll note it is far less a proportion then you'll find at, say, a Trump rally. "If white nationalists put out even a 1/10th of this spectacle, it'd be an international scandal." White nationalists have far higher proportion of documented hate speech, and you not only defend them, but decry legal action against hate speech. "A ceasefire at this point is tantamount to an Israeli failure." Perhaps then, they are going about this wrong and that is why they are failing? After all this has proven now far more lethal to civilians and at a higher rate than any comparable action (including Assad's attacks on rebel areas). "Israel is not killing civilians," It absolutely is. The fact you think it may be doing so without intent (again, also false, they are intending to kill them, they are arguing that the incidental deaths of civilians is justified because of the need to kill Hamas, but the test for that is proportionality: are there other means to kill Hamas at a safer juncture or is the civilian death toll proportionate to the benefit of killing those that are the intended target) it is defending itself against Hamas. Hamasa using civilians as human shields means those deaths are on them, not Israel. They can always fight Israel on open terrain if they prefer to minimize casualties.). "How are you supposed to defend yourself against a population" You aren't allowed to defend yourself "against a population". You are allowed to defend yourself against a clear military threat. "that fundamentally denies your right to exist?" Well, let me throw that back at you. How far are Palestinians entitled to go to defend themselves against an Israeli population that denies their right to exist as a free people? I would say there are no circumstances where it would be acceptable to attack a hospital with a bomb, irrespective of however many soldiers were inside, unless there was an actual attack being launched from it. "That is the dilemma Israel faces." It is indeed a dilemma. However it is a dilemma both the US and the UK and NATO have faced in a number of conflicts with Islamic fundamentalists and still somehow managed to do a far more humane and legally defensible job of it. The difference night have something to do with the long standing position of the current Israeli govt and the parties that head it up, that the Palestinian nation should should be destroyed and it's lands expropriated. "The Palestinian people *at large* are the problem." I disagree, the fundamental problem is the refusal of Israel to grant Palestinians freedom. Obviously if you do that, conflict is inevitable. "Until they change that, occupation is the only answer." It is natural to hate occupiers, especially occupiers that permit their countrymen to murder you with impunity as is the case with Israeli settlers. If you were born and lived in those conditions, you'd absolutely hate the Israelis. Don't pretend otherwise.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Nov 13 09:43:34 Lol sebland is so ultimately cucked. No wonder your economy is worse than alabama. If you were white... why would you possibly stick around or ever work hard in england? No future there.
Seb Member	Mon Nov 13 09:45:16 The hatred will not end until occupation ends. So there must be a process whereby Palestine gets it's freedom, Israel sees it's security guaranteed, and terrorists are brought to justice or killed. There is no other solution. Permanent occupation simply means every so often a terrorist group will be successful because no security force is ever perfect.
Allahuakbar Member	Mon Nov 13 11:53:32 Ah this is what the invaders bring to Gaza ... I don't think that any of my dear brothers on UP will support this? Tell Biden to stop all aid for Isreeel! http://twitter.com/Israel/status/1723971340825186754 The first ever pride flag raised in Gaza Yoav Atzmoni who is a member of the LGBTQ+ community wanted to send a message of hope to the people of Gaza living under Hamas brutality. His intention was to raise the first pride flag in Gaza as a call for peace and freedom.
murder Member	Mon Nov 13 12:46:47 "Yes, but also Gaza is on the Sea and the West Bank is on the river, and the campaigners want both to be free." Seriously Seb? You know damn well what they mean. Everyone knows what they mean.
murder Member	Mon Nov 13 13:06:56 "Israel has spent the last decade trying to make living in Gaza impossible by restricting access to vital materials including access to health." Israel has been restricting access to vital materials because Gazans won't stop attacking Israel. And obviously the restrictions haven't been strict enough since Gazans are able to import and manufacture weapons, construction equipment that was used to breach the security wall, trucks, motorcycles, and even fucking paragliders and speedboats. Gazans can't be trusted with anything including safety scissors.
Paramount Member	Mon Nov 13 13:23:40 Palestinian resistance groups such as Hamas has not only the right but also the obligation to attack Israel. The jewish settlers and their offspring need to return to their countries of origin in Europe and US. Israeli political and military leaders must be charged for war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide and then be hanged.
Seb Member	Mon Nov 13 14:36:11 Murder: Clearly, you don't. I know plenty of otherwise perfectly lovely white middle class people, mostly women, of the type you would call bleeding heart that sincerely believe it means precisely that. These are the kind of people that make up the bulk of these marches in London: not crusty old Tankies that have decided the idea of a specifically Jewish state is an expression of Western Imperialism to be opposed on principle, or Islamic fundamentalists. You can choose to believe that they are all frothing at the mouth people that want to see nice white Israeli kids butchered by Hamas in a violent overthrow of the state of Israel, but you are kidding yourself. They adopted this chant because that is what the Tankies were shouting, they didn't bother to look into the history, and they have rationalised it from a two state solution perspective that is the mainstream view of what people think would be the preferred outcome. And when you point out the historical route they think you are being disingenuous or trying to prohibit any expression that runs contrary to a pro-Israeli position. And to be honest, they have a point: it is screamingly obvious that the majority of the people on the march using the slogan do not consider the chant to imply abolition of the state of Israel or genocide of Jews - so it is obviously disingenuous to try and use the chant as evidence to the contrary. Because of the obvious dishonesty in this claim, they have little time for people pointing out the chants original meaning, they simply assume the intellectual dishonesty of the smear on their motivations applies to the factual claims about the chants origin and meaning. And that is why they will not desist in its use. "Israel has been restricting access to vital materials because Gazans won't stop attacking Israel." Casually incorrect. The embargo started the day Israel left and never let up during any period of ceasefire. You can just as well say the reverse: attacks have never stopped because the embargo has never stopped. In any case, under the Rome Statutes cutting of vital materials like water, food and access to medicine and relief speak to the legal figure of genocide, an attempt to destroy a people in whole or part. Destroy doesn't even have to mean killing them all - it explicitly can mean attempting to drive them out by making the territory impossible to safely inhabit. "since Gazans are able to import and manufacture weapons" Netenyahu has permitted Quatar to transfer over a billion dollars specifically to Hamas to build them up as an opposition to Fatah over his period in power. If you want to know why Hamas has so much military materiel while the population of Gaza is impoverished, you can start from there. And he's on record as having done that and advocated for it. So before you start going on about how it's fine to starve a million kids to death because Hamas is still able to get guns, you should be advocating for Netenyahu and his cabinet to be in cells in the Hague for funding and arming a terrorist group.
murder Member	Mon Nov 13 15:13:36 "And to be honest, they have a point: it is screamingly obvious that the majority of the people on the march using the slogan do not consider the chant to imply abolition of the state of Israel or genocide of Jews - so it is obviously disingenuous to try and use the chant as evidence to the contrary." They don't understand plain English? You're being as ridiculous as Donald Trump defending the very fine people marching with torches and chanting "Jews will not replace us!" "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free!" is hardly subtle or ambiguous.
murder Member	Mon Nov 13 15:25:04 "So before you start going on about how it's fine to starve a million kids to death because Hamas is still able to get guns, you should be advocating for Netenyahu and his cabinet to be in cells in the Hague for funding and arming a terrorist group." I don't care if you string up Netanyahu, his cabinet, his whole party, and then nuke the whole of Israel. I don't care if you string up Hamas' leaders, every one of their fighters, and then nuke the whole of Gaza and the West Bank. I'm fine with one or the other or both. What I'm not fine with is pretending that animals are not animals, that terrorists are not terrorists, that Palestinians can fight mighty Israel but can't defeat Hamas, or that problems don't need to be dealt with. There are two dogs and only one bone, and they can't or won't share. That's the reality. One or both of them have to go.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Nov 13 15:58:28 Israel has captured a hamas compound/UN hospital. It is connected to the hamas tunnel network and weopons plus hostages were kept in the hospital basement. A list of guards shifts indicate it was abandoned by hamas anout a week ago IDF ground forces moved in. The UN claims they were completely unaware.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Nov 13 17:18:55 Hamas spokesman has announced a new policy. "We will no longer throw the gays off tall buildings". "Unfortunately, we have no tall buildings left".
Paramount Member	Tue Nov 14 01:52:17 http://x.com/kthalps/status/1723538810221338973 The accusations against Russia and China of genocide are ridiculous when we compare it to a actual genocide. It will be easy to get a conviction in the ICC. The Jewish Nazis will be hanged. Joe Biden and Blinken and others in the US admin also need to be hanged for aiding and abetting the genocide.
Seb Member	Tue Nov 14 03:26:31 Wow. http://twi...?t=dFC6tR3gcyGyBxRHgWhmIA&s=19 If this is true it's quite something. Israel is certain about this underground command complex because they built a secure ops centre in the 1980s before withdrawal. So... Israel built military infrastructure underneath this hospital.
Seb Member	Tue Nov 14 03:31:21 Murder: "They don't understand plain English?" They do. Plain English, Palestine has two parts, one on the river, one on the sea, both should be free. To them, they see an attempt to cast them as calling for the destruction of Israel when they are all carrying signs clearly demanding a two state solution as obviously bogus so they aren't prepared to listen to the history of where the chant comes from. It's more akin to people chanting "you will not replace us" because they have been told/think it's about hiring cheap migrant workforce, not a coded version of "Jews will not replace us".
Seb Member	Tue Nov 14 03:49:04 It's not plane English that makes it a threat, its the contextual understanding that the chant was originally used by the PLO (note, not Hamas) and Tankies to advocate for a democratic, secular unitary state in the borders of mandated Palestine. Note also the explicit policy attached to that was that Jews born or naturalised in Palestine would be citizens with equal rights (so hard to associate the call with genocide). Note this is a complete mirror to the policy of the Israeli govt. and Likuds charter. There are obvious issues about the realism of a one state solution. Israel explicitly discriminates in laws designed to limit the rights of Arab Israelis in a number of ways even within Israel propper, let alone the impunity with which settlers are allowed to kill Palestinians, destroy their property and steal their holdings. And of course it is difficult to see how the reverse would not occur in a unitary state where the majority was held by Palestinians. Fundamentally, it's incredibly weak to argue that the hundreds of thousands of people marching and using this slogan are using it with the intention that Israel be abolished and the Jewish population exterminated or exiled; they reject that claim when challenged, the language allows for it to mean other than that, the rest of the slogans and signs most of these people are carrying directly contradict this interpretation, and even the original usage of the chant explicitly rejects genocide. To draw a direct implication from the chant to genocide is pretty much untenable. It still should not be used given its context, but when you start off trying to de-legitimise the protestors with an obviously false accusation that they are calling for genocide, they aren't going to give that much time of day.
Seb Member	Tue Nov 14 03:52:40 Murder: "What I'm not fine with is pretending that animals are not animals" Cockroaches, perhaps? Cockroaches to be gassed perhaps? And those children, not really children, more lavae, perhaps? Vermin even, whose extermination is actual a good thing, perhaps? This is what happens when you dehumanise people murder. Semantic leakage. If you can't accept that there are evil people, and instead need to dehumanise them, you quickly stop seeing people who look like them as people too.
Seb Member	Tue Nov 14 03:55:54 "that Palestinians can fight mighty Israel but can't defeat Hamas," The only Palestinian group remotely able to fight Israel is Hamas. What are you saying then, it's ok to kill thousands of Palestinan children because they don't fight Hamas, and if Hamas (flush with a billion quatari dollars that Netenyahu has intentionally let them get) can inflict tactical defeats on Israel, then obviously the other Gazans should be able to fight Hamas? That doesn't even have internal logic.
Paramount Member	Tue Nov 14 04:00:51 The Israeli army has failed to find tunnels or weapons stockpiled in Rantisi hospital. Instead, it has turned up a pack of diapers and a calendar listing the days of the week. The presentation has become a laughingstock, except among the cretinous and narrowing base of support for Israel's exterminationist operation. But it has served a larger purpose, helping Israel obscure its real motives for attacking and occupying the three major hospitals in northern Gaza. These hospitals have provided oases for tens of thousands of displaced civilians whose homes were destroyed. Israel is determined to force them south, pushing them toward Rafah to generate pressure on Egypt to take them in. Eliminating these hospitals also allows Israel to manufacture a humanitarian crisis and ratchet up the pressure on Egypt to accept masses of sick and wounded refugees at hospitals of its own. Israel deploys desperate artifice to paint Al-Shifa, Al-Rantisi and Quds hospitals as secret military command posts, when in fact, it sees them as obstacles to the next Nakba. http://x.com/maxblumenthal/status/1724270612317659574
Paramount Member	Tue Nov 14 04:33:59 The IDF has found the names of the Hamas terrorists that was guarding the jewish POWs. The names were found on a calendar in a hospital’s basement. They are Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday. http://x.com/jacksonhinklle/status/1724211977986142627
Paramount Member	Tue Nov 14 06:01:10 The IDF has now turned a UN school into a military base and are displaying civilians as human shields. http://x.com/itranslate123/status/1723739304860549605 Israel has also killed a record number of UN staff in history. 101 has been murdered so far.
Paramount Member	Tue Nov 14 07:25:59 Israel admits apache helicopters fired on their own civilians running from the Supernova music festival. “The pilots realised that there was tremendous difficulty in distinguishing within the occupied outposts and settlements who was a terrorist and who was a soldier or civilian… The rate of fire against the thousands of terrorists was tremendous at first, and only at a certain point did the pilots begin to slow down the attacks and carefully select the targets.” middleeastmonitor.com/20231030-repor… archive.is/IIOLg http://x.com/partisangirl/status/1722527493780021654 This is is why we saw images of burned people inside their cars. Obviously a gun does not make this damage, but an Israeli apache helicopter does. Israel showed these images to journalists to justify their genocide in Gaza. http://x.com/partisangirl/status/1722536980893118563 More footage from the Israel Apache helicopters shooting at cars: “The Apache pilots testify that they fired a huge amount of munitions, emptied the ‘belly of the helicopter’ in minutes, flew to re-arm and returned to the air, again and again. But it didn’t help and they understand it,” Mako reported. The Apache helicopters appear to have focused on vehicles streaming back into Gaza from the Nova electronic music festival and nearby kibbutzes, attacked cars  with apparent knowledge that Israeli captives could be inside. They also fired on unarmed people exiting cars or walking on foot through the fields on the periphery of Gaza. One Apache pilot reflected on the tortuous dilemma of whether to shoot at people and cars returning to Gaza. He knew that many of those vehicles may have contained Israeli captives. But he chose to open fire anyway. “I choose targets like that,” the pilot reflected, “where I tell myself that the chance that I am shooting here on hostages as well is low.” However, he admitted that his judgment “was not 100%.” Source:ynet.co.il/news/article/b… http://x.com/partisangirl/status/1722542016045965688
Paramount Member	Tue Nov 14 07:30:14 Hamas is everywhere now http://x.com/wizardsx0/status/1724107015838920830
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Nov 14 07:55:22 Regarding Al-Shifa hospital and who built the "tunnels". Wiki says Israel built Shifa hospital and as part of the architects design it had extensive underground structures. This is pretty normal for hospitals, I'm assuming Israel designed the hospital to have some sheltering capacity.
Paramount Member	Tue Nov 14 08:14:01 Allah is the greatest ‎What you will watch is not an action movie.. but a heroic epic carried out by the rapid intervention elite from ⁧‫#كتائب_االقسام‬⁩ carrying out a landing operation behind enemy lines. ‎Annihilating an entire battalion, including its vehicles and soldiers, in a lightning operation that disrupted the enemy’s ranks ‎This is what the West fears from the ground battle: a war with lovers of death ⁧‫#غزة_تنتصر‬⁩ http://x.com/ma000111/status/1724260085600272617 I guess it is the glorious al-Qassam brigades? I’m not an arab or a muslim but I LOVE the sight of destroyed and burning fascist Israel tanks. The IDF should stick to fighting women and babies. It is what they are good at and what they are most experienced in.
murder Member	Tue Nov 14 08:29:17 "Plain English, Palestine has two parts, one on the river, one on the sea, both should be free." To isn't And, and there's no reason to mention the river or the sea unless your talking about the space in between them. Playing dumb isn't your strong suit. "The only Palestinian group remotely able to fight Israel is Hamas. What are you saying then, it's ok to kill thousands of Palestinan children because they don't fight Hamas, and if Hamas (flush with a billion quatari dollars that Netenyahu has intentionally let them get) can inflict tactical defeats on Israel, then obviously the other Gazans should be able to fight Hamas?" Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Your logic fails you. In your mind the Palestinian people are helpless to liberate themselves from Hamas. The reality is that millions of Palestinians armed to rocks and sticks and their fist have far greater chance to defeat Hamas than Hamas with their rockets and RPGs and AK47s does of defeating Israel. If most Palestinians are opposed to Hamas, then they could easily overwhelm them. "But they'll be killed!!!!" They are being killed now, aren't they. And this was predictable, wasn't it? They knew that Hamas would eventually bring this fate crashing down on them and they still refused to deal with Hamas themselves. What does that tell you? Your problem is that you start out with faulty beliefs. Gazans support Hamas or Hamas could not survive. This is the same nonsense as occurred in Afghanistan.
murder Member	Tue Nov 14 08:42:45 It shouldn't need to be said, but all these innocent children dying today are dying because well meaning bleeding hearts stopped Israel from from finishing the job in the past. And stopping Israel from finishing the job this time will only guarantee that innocent children will have to die tomorrow. The only way Palestinians children will ever live free of fear of bombing or invasion is to be rid of groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad and the rest of these terrorist organizations.
Paramount Member	Tue Nov 14 08:54:54 ” all these innocent children dying today are dying because well meaning bleeding hearts stopped Israel from from finishing the job in the past.” People are dying today because well meaning bleeding hearts stopped Germany from finishing the job in the past :o) ” The only way Palestinians children will ever live free of fear of bombing or invasion is to be rid of groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad and the rest of these terrorist organizations.” There is no Hamas on the West Bank and yet the fascist jews murders palestinian children there every single day.
Seb Member	Tue Nov 14 11:05:19 Nimatzo: There's reports from 2014 in the slate that Israeli security folks were saying there's an underground operations centre with communications links that they used and they know Hamas took control of. That's not hospital structures.
Seb Member	Tue Nov 14 11:08:55 Murder: "there's no reason to mention the river or the sea unless your talking about the space in between them." And here you are getting into deep semantics. But the question isn't what - if anything - is the universal and unassailable meaning of the phrase - it is what it means to those chanting it. You can certainly say that most of them are being idiotic using it because it's literal meaning is not what they say or believe it to be. It is quite another to try and use it to "prove" that they desire genocide when they very clearly do not.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Nov 14 11:33:10 A significant chunk of the far left and muslim populations in question very clearly do want genocide of israel.
Seb Member	Tue Nov 14 11:46:40 Sam: No, I don't think a significant chunk do. Most, if not all, of the far left that wasn't to see Israel replaced with a unitary state do so under the naive belief that Jewish nationalists, Arab nationalists and Islamists will somehow be manageable in the way that e.g. Irish nationalist terrorists were. Most of the Muslims are simply infuriated at the double standards being applied, where Israel has been allowed to invade their land, ethnically cleanse it, occupy it, starve, bomb and kill with impunity and without condemnation of the west. If even David Ben-Gurion can acknowledge that, so can you if you are remotely honest about it.
Seb Member	Tue Nov 14 11:48:57 Murder: "Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying." Then you are a fucking idiot. It's like saying the Jews in Germany deserved the Holocaust because they were complicit in it, evidenced by their failure to defeat the whermacht. It's just brain-dead drivel, devoid of any logic.
murder Member	Tue Nov 14 12:32:36 "Then you are a fucking idiot. It's like saying the Jews in Germany deserved the Holocaust because they were complicit in it, evidenced by their failure to defeat the whermacht." Jews in Germany were the target of the regime and a small fraction of the population. Your lie is that the majority of the population of Gaza opposes Hamas. That's not even apples to oranges. You just want to believe the lie. The reason 2 million Gazans don't overthrow the few thousand Hamas militants is because they are on the same side.
murder Member	Tue Nov 14 12:35:48 "People are dying today because well meaning bleeding hearts stopped Germany from finishing the job in the past :o)" No argument here. "There is no Hamas on the West Bank and yet the fascist jews murders palestinian children there every single day." Hamas is not the only Palestinian terrorist organization.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Nov 14 12:41:46 Seb It says “Operating room” not operations center. Operating rooms are pretty standard in hospitals.
murder Member	Tue Nov 14 12:56:09 "But the question isn't what - if anything - is the universal and unassailable meaning of the phrase - it is what it means to those chanting it." The words are the words. You can march around yelling "Death to the Jews!" and claim that it's really just a call for peace, but you'd just be full of shit. You have slipped into a Trumpian reality where truth is whatever the fuck you say it is, or whatever you want to believe.
Seb Member	Tue Nov 14 15:06:14 Murder: "Your lie is that the majority of the population of Gaza opposes Hamas." So, your argument (in full disregard to the majority of human history) is that organised and well armed factions cannot dominate a population without popular support, ability to organise and weapons? I mean that is just wild. Only a few years ago there was mass protests against Hamas, and they shot a bunch of people, executed the ringleaders and dragged them around. Your argument appears to be that the protestors secretly really supported Hamas - rather than the simple fact that an organised, well armed group will easily defeat a disorganised, unarmed resistance. I mean for fucks sakes, you are talking to a Brit. Most of the history of my country for the last half a millenium is about us being well organised, heavily armed and able to dominate vast chunks of the globe against much larger populations by playing divide and rule and ruthlessly destroying any opposition.
Seb Member	Tue Nov 14 15:16:57 Nim: Read the source articles it cites. Operating rooms aren't built in underground bunkers with communication infrastructure. Murder: "The words are the words." Yes, and they don't remotely say "Genocide the Jews" as you claim. You have to make two inferences - that Palestine being 'free' from river to sea means a revocation of the state of Israel (which is inconsistent with the majority of protestors in these marches which are also calling for a two state solution etc.) and that such a revocation means the killing or expulsion of the Jewish population. I would suggest you are hanging FAR more than can be sustained on a point of grammar given all the other available evidence. These are just well meaning people who are ignorant of the context of the chant and aren't interested in taking history pointers from people who are obviously disingenuously accusing them of advocating genocide. "Death to the Jews!" Except the vast majority aren't though, and that's the point. According to you, there are hundreds of thousands of people marching in London, some of the largest protest marches we ever seen, predominantly white middle class folks of the same type that march for pride and all sorts of other causes that are frankly incompatible with calls for mass slaughter; and that these people are both loudly demanding the extermination of the Jewish people, but also cunningly and carefully disguising it by NOT actually calling explicitly for that, but using an ambiguous phrase and surrounding themselves with placards and other slogans that appear to be demanding Israel and Palestine coexist as neighbouring states. It's a bit fucking ridiculous really.
Seb Member	Tue Nov 14 15:17:51 I mean Murder, who the fuck are you to lecture anyone about hate speech when you call Palestinians animals.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Nov 14 16:05:03 "the double standards" Obviously different standards apply to civilized verse uncivilized populations. If you dont like it, thats an easy fix: become civilized. Anyway, al-jizzeria let slip that hamas is disguising themselves amongst hospital patients. Lol oops.
jergul large member	Tue Nov 14 16:07:10 Back! Sammy Have I lost my order of magnitude yet?
Sam Adams Member	Tue Nov 14 20:03:54 I was wondering where you went. Ya, total palestinians dead according to hamas is about 12.5k, they usually arnt that far off(except they call everyone a civilian), and theres at least a few k dead in the areas they dont have access to anymore and probably a few k more dead under rubble that they call missing plus a few k more hamas fighters that they dont want to talk about. So figure around 20k at the moment. At this point i'd guess we are on our way to 30k... thats near the 20:1 kill ratio typical in these fights. The IDF is storming the al shifa command center and hospital as we speak. Amazingly dishonorable, these gazans. Like way worse than russians.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Nov 14 20:46:42 Seb Says nothing about Israel building a "bunker" or any kind of military infrastructure under the hospital.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Nov 14 22:31:32 Sounds like israel has taken at least part of al shifa.
Paramount Member	Wed Nov 15 01:14:04 When the fascists won’t find anything in particular at al-Shifa they are going to plant things there. Guns, ammo, Mein Kamph the book, a laptop with by Israel AI-generated audio- and video recordings where we will be able to hear ”Hamas” saying that they love their base of operation in al-Shifa because the jews are never going to find it, passports of Iranian officials, and home made porn videos.
murder Member	Wed Nov 15 07:45:09 "So, your argument (in full disregard to the majority of human history) is that organised and well armed factions cannot dominate a population without popular support, ability to organise and weapons?" Hamas is neither well organized or well armed. Even the fucking French overthrew their oppressors. Every member of Hamas needs a place to sleep, they need to eat, and they need to take a shit ... and they don't all have 24/7 protection. Hamas needs to resupply, and they can possibly secure their entire supply chain. You just keep making excuses for people that only want to be liberated from the Israelis ... not Hamas. The same people you see throwing rocks at Israeli tanks don't lift a fucking finger to oust Hamas. "Only a few years ago there was mass protests against Hamas, and they shot a bunch of people, executed the ringleaders and dragged them around." Well that should have caused an even bigger uprising, right? Not only because the majority who already don't like Hamas would become enraged at the injustice, but also because the golden rule of the middle east ... if you kill one you only create two more ... or some other such nonsense always spewed by people trying to stop the killing of terrorists. You literally argue in circles. If Gazans truly opposed Hamas but were simply too weak to overthrow them, Israel would have detailed maps to every Hamas tunnel, command bunker, supply route, and weapons stash, in all of Gaza. Gaza is as we are frequently reminded, densely populated. At least some part of the "majority" that oppose Hamas would be aware of ALL of their activities. There would be detailed maps and details of their operations online for the entire fucking world to see. And lol at you comparing Hamas to the British armed forces. "Yes, and they don't remotely say "Genocide the Jews" as you claim. You have to make two inferences - that Palestine being 'free' from river to sea means a revocation of the state of Israel (which is inconsistent with the majority of protestors in these marches which are also calling for a two state solution etc.) and that such a revocation means the killing or expulsion of the Jewish population." Palestine can't be free between the West Bank and Gaza without getting rid of the Israeli bit in between. And yes, I'm very familiar with double-talk ... like when Donald Trump called immigrants crossing our southern border drug mules and rapists ... and some he assumes are good people. So you see, not racists at all. "Except the vast majority aren't though, and that's the point." Yes, and Trump wasn't calling all immigrants rapists and drug mules. I mean he did leave room for the possibility that some might be good people, so not racist at all. The thing about dog whistles is that they aren't really meant for you. "According to you, there are hundreds of thousands of people marching in London, some of the largest protest marches we ever seen, predominantly white middle class folks of the same type that march for pride and all sorts of other causes that are frankly incompatible with calls for mass slaughter; and that these people are both loudly demanding the extermination of the Jewish people, but also cunningly and carefully disguising it by NOT actually calling explicitly for that, but using an ambiguous phrase and surrounding themselves with placards and other slogans that appear to be demanding Israel and Palestine coexist as neighbouring states." Yeah, right? Antisemitism in Europe? That's crazy talk! "It's a bit fucking ridiculous really." Have you been napping for the past decade or so. The recent history of the US is exactly this. Millions of people that were secretly racist have come spilling out into public view loud and proud. I'd go into a rant about what I've long been warning is the real Republican agenda, but that's for a different thread. Yeah, people who pretend to be good citizens and good people are secretly shitbags, and from time to time that shit spills out even when they don't mean to reveal it. And those leftists that you think wouldn't support genocide can rationalize it away by simply relocating the Jews someplace other than Palestine. Just not in the UK. "I mean Murder, who the fuck are you to lecture anyone about hate speech when you call Palestinians animals." I didn't realize I was conducting a lecture. And I don't recall calling Palestinians animals. Maybe you just came across a glass slipper laying around.
Sam Adams Member	Wed Nov 15 08:40:59 Reuters: israel is helping the patients in the hospital. Bbc: according to a reuters report, israel is attacking the patients in the hospital. Amazing.
Seb Member	Wed Nov 15 08:47:15 "Hamas is neither well organized or well armed." The reason we are even talking about Hamas is that it launched a sophisticated combined arms operation that overran IDF defences forces, captured IDF bases and killed however many people it was. It's built a network of underground tunnels stuffed with artillery rockets, and 20,000 armed fighters. And you argue it is not well organised or well armed. If it's not well enough organised or well armed enough to defeat stone throwing crowds, how is your a threat to Israel? And you are seriously
Paramount Member	Wed Nov 15 09:45:59 Israeli snipers has been shooting into the hospital. Yesterday Israel shot and killed a nurse. Israel has stripped naked and blindfolded patients and/or refugees at the hospital and interrogated patients. Israel has still not presented any evidence that Hamas is using the hospital as a command center. I guess it takes time for Israel to manufacture the ”evidence”.
Paramount Member	Wed Nov 15 09:49:26 Erdogan is the man. He says, regarding Israel, that ”your time of death is now coming” and then entire parliament gives standing applaudes. http://youtu.be/Jln4HDJkiwo I fking LOVE Erdogan. I hope he is serious and that Turkey will CRUSH the Zionazi Israeli state.
Rugian Member	Wed Nov 15 10:14:44 John Oliver offered a very Seb-ian take on the conflict: http://amp...-on-israel-hamas-war-netanyahu Basically, under the guise of being "neutral," he claims the Palestinians should not be held accountable for Hamas, characterizes Israel's government as "far-right," condemns the current Israeli military campaign, and calls for an immediate ceasefire. This sort of liberal amorality is disgusting.
Rugian Member	Wed Nov 15 10:25:14 The problem with Seb's (and Oliver's) entire view on this conflict is that is requires the presupposition that the Palestinian people at large do, in fact, want a permanent and realistic peace with Israel. Sorry, but there is NOTHING to suggest that is the case. Seb's "proof" is a random poll that does little than to say that the Palestinians aren't happy with the status quo (notably, it is silent on the terms of any sort of "peace" that would be acceptable to them) and a single protest that took place a while back (that does nothing to suggest any sort of majority opinion. The reality is that anti-Semitism is overwhelmingly entrenched in both the Palestinian Territories and the larger Muslim world. Fatah has never been a serious advocate for peace; to this day it still rewards the families of terrorists who kill Jews. The only serious competition to Fatah in the last several decades is Hamas, which is explicit in its advocacy for genociding the Jews. Hamas was elected by the Palestinian people nearly 20 years ago and has never faced any serious threats to its rule in that time. The problem with the Seb-ian left has is that they try to project their own Western values onto the Palestinian people. In reality, they DON'T think like us, they DON'T have the same worldviews and beliefs as us. The Palestinian people's hatred of Jews outweighs their desire for a *lasting* peace. It's not just the leadership, it's the population at large. That is why it is futile to negotiate with them.
Paramount Member	Wed Nov 15 11:00:20 “When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty” — Thomas Jefferson When the oppression ends, the resistance ends.
Seb Member	Wed Nov 15 11:32:37 Rugian: A few weeks ago you were citing a poll that definitively showed exactly that the majority of pals in Gaza want peace, albeit you were citing it in a misleading way to try and prove the opposite. You are starting from an assertion and then rejecting anything which refutes it.
Seb Member	Wed Nov 15 11:35:06 "notably, it is silent on the terms of any sort of "peace" that would be acceptable to them" Firstly, let's remember, it was you and Sam that both independently cited this poll. Secondly, it was specific on the question: "Hamas should stop calling for Israel’s destruction, and instead accept a permanent two-state solution based on the 1967 borders.” So it is simply dishonest to claim otherwise.
Rugian Member	Wed Nov 15 12:39:46 Seb That poll showed that 50% of Gazans and 62% of West Bankers disagreed with formulating a peace established on a two-state model and ending Hamas' calls for the destruction of Israel. If that's what "wanting peace" looks like to you, then I don't know what to tell you. I also assume that the minority that does support peace would only do so provided that Israel capitulates on literally everything else, from settlements to security guarantees to East Jerusalem. These people are not peaceniks Seb.
Rugian Member	Wed Nov 15 12:42:43 To put it another way, 50% (1.2 million people) of Gaza is perfectly fine with Hamas continuing to advocate for the destruction of Israel. Fuck them. They deserve what they've sown.
murder Member	Wed Nov 15 13:11:05 Right before the Israelis invaded a bunch of patients apparently died and had to be buried in mass graves. Maybe I'm just the suspicious sort but the Israelis may want to check those graves to make sure the the hospital staff wasn't just hiding weapons.
murder Member	Wed Nov 15 13:22:40 "The reason we are even talking about Hamas is that it launched a sophisticated combined arms operation that overran IDF defences forces, captured IDF bases and killed however many people it was." It caught the Israelis napping. And odd that you'd bring up an unsophisticated, poor armed force overwhelming a much better organized and powerful force in order to argue that that very thing can't be done. "It's built a network of underground tunnels stuffed with artillery rockets, and 20,000 armed fighters. And you argue it is not well organised or well armed." Shitty homemade rockets. And yeah, people have been using tunnels for millennia. I didn't say they didn't have any organization at all. "If it's not well enough organised or well armed enough to defeat stone throwing crowds, how is your a threat to Israel?" It just slaughtered over 1000 Israelis and have hundreds of thousands of Palestinians to draw from for further massacres. Numbers can overwhelm even the best defenses.
murder Member	Wed Nov 15 13:26:00 btw my favorite part of all this is some people on the left insisting that this was simply a security failure on Israel's part. The same people that screamed to the heavens about the border fence are suddenly arguing that rather than slaughtering Hamas, all the Israelis need to do is beef up border security.
murder Member	Wed Nov 15 13:32:47 “When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty” — Thomas Jefferson "Resistance is often accompanied by consequences." -- murder
Paramount Member	Wed Nov 15 14:50:50 As I thought, the IDF planted the ”evidence” http://x.com/ytirawi/status/1724869440657924174 In disguise of cartons of ”medical aid” they carried the ”evidence” into the hospital.
Paramount Member	Wed Nov 15 14:58:47 Jews being Jews Doctor Khaled Abu Samra from Shifa Hospital to [@AlarabyTV]: The Israeli military confiscated water bottles from the hospital basement, put stickers on them, and presented it as humanitarian aid to us. http://x.com/ytirawi/status/1724875900771057904
Paramount Member	Wed Nov 15 15:03:18 The Hamas evidence that Israel found in the hospital: http://x.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1724763660415824017 Lol. Israel is so dumb that they don’t think people understands what they are doing.
Paramount Member	Wed Nov 15 15:43:30 The IDF is so dumb. They should stick to killing babies, mothers and grandmothers. That’s the only thing they are good at. http://x.com/warmonitors/status/1724421216046313640
Sam Adams Member	Wed Nov 15 19:50:09 http://x.com/antisemitism/status/1724920201819402671?s=20 Muslims were staging a pro-hamas rally, and jews were nearby with banners saying "free the hostages" Sebs police accosted the jews and tried to silence them "people blocking the road and shouting slogans what they objected to about us showing the faces of Israeli children kidnapped by Hamas. They had no answers. @MetPoliceUK took no action against the protesters but politely asked us to turn off the billboards and leave the area. When we politely refused, they pulled the van over for a thorough documentation check."
jergul large member	Wed Nov 15 20:51:48 I use UN numbers, but fair enough 12.5k is 5 digits.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Nov 16 05:45:03 http://www...aces-trial-by-fire-2023-11-15/ DUBAI, Nov 15 (Reuters) - Iran's supreme leader delivered a clear message to the head of Hamas when they met in Tehran in early November, according to three senior officials: You gave us no warning of your Oct. 7 attack on Israel and we will not enter the war on your behalf. [....] Nonetheless, alliance leader Iran won't directly intervene in the conflict unless it is itself attacked by Israel or the United States, according to six officials with direct knowledge of Tehran's thinking who declined to named due to the sensitive nature of the matter. Instead, Iran's clerical rulers plan to continue using their axis network of armed allies, including Hezbollah, to launch rocket and drone attacks on Israeli and American targets across the Middle East, the officials said. The strategy is a calibrated effort to demonstrate solidarity for Hamas in Gaza and stretch Israeli forces without becoming engaged in a direct confrontation with Israel that could draw in the United States, they added.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Nov 16 05:59:41 Was watching an interview given by Amir Ali Hajizadeh (Revolutionary guard general for the missile forces) a year ago about the response to the US killing Soleimani. Their own assessment, had they started and engaged in a war with the USA for a month: 15 000 dead and the country receiving some damage, will be thrown back 10-20 years. In his own words, this was not an outcome desirable for us. A moment of clarity in a sea of propaganda.
Seb Member	Thu Nov 16 09:58:58 Rugian: Firstly, as I think you argued last time, the poll can only be understood to relate to Adults. Given that 50% of the population of Gaza are children, can you explain how you have got to a number of 1.2m Gazans? Secondly, you are again changing the meaning of the question which was: "Hamas should stop calling for Israel’s destruction, and instead accept a permanent two-state solution based on the 1967 borders." It is understandable that over half of West Bank population would support a two-state solution given that Israel presently rejects one and continues to progressively occupy the West Bank. It is somewhat like asking the population of Britain during 1943 "Britain's government should stop demanding unilateral surrender from Germany and instead focus on concluding a peace deal based on a strong western Germany able to withstand the communists." You would not have found 35% in favour of that proposition either. The rest of the results show a preference for negotiations and peace (and the main leverage Palestinians have for a peace settlement is recognition of Israel so, obviously, there is little appetite for conceding that point before Israel concedes the idea of a Palestinian state on the West Bank and Gaza within the 1967 boundaries, which of course Israel does not and has not done, despite signing the Oslo accords in what has turned out to be obvious bad faith). "To put it another way, 50% (1.2 million people) of Gaza is perfectly fine with Hamas continuing to advocate for the destruction of Israel." Shall we look at the voter turn out for Likud and see how much of the Israeli population support the destruction of the Palestinian population in Gaza and the West Bank - remembering of course that this is official Likud policy within their charter?
Seb Member	Thu Nov 16 10:04:43 Murder: "It caught the Israelis napping." They caught the ISraeli's napping in the sense they were not prepared for a large, sophisticated and well armed attack. Could a stone throwing mob have overrun multiple army bases and capture and destroy vechiles? Do you think a stone throwing mob would do better than the IDF forces present in defending against such an attack? You are utterly deranged. "And odd that you'd bring up an unsophisticated, poor armed force overwhelming a much better organized and powerful force in order to argue that that very thing can't be done." Except it is my contention that Hamas isn't an unsophisticated, weak enemy. The fact it was able to overrun IDF bases shows it isn't. "It just slaughtered over 1000 Israelis and have hundreds of thousands of Palestinians to draw from for further massacres. Numbers can overwhelm even the best defenses." So if they can slaughter 1000 plus Israelis, overrun IDF bases against Armed resistance - why do you think they can't happily slaughter this popular unarmed uprising you think would obviously defeat them? That is, after all, what they did in 2006 and every time there is a protest within Gaza against them.
Seb Member	Thu Nov 16 10:07:07 murder: "left insisting that this was simply a security failure on Israel's part" What, like you just did, where you suggested that the only reason Hamas posed a threat was because the IDF was napping, and otherwise would have been stopped by an unarmed mob in the way that an unarmed mob og Gazans could drive them off. And if that's true, surely the Israeli civilians ought to have just beaten Hamas off without need of the IDF anyway? This crazy pretence that Hamas are not a significant military threat more than capable of seeing off any unarmed opposition (Israeli or Gazan) is just bullshit.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Nov 16 10:10:31 ”Except it is my contention that Hamas isn't an unsophisticated, weak enemy. The fact it was able to overrun IDF bases shows it isn't.” Weak and unsophisticated enemies can inflict damage on superior enemies, given the right timing and some luck. It happens.
Rugian Member	Thu Nov 16 10:17:15 Seb What is your evidence that Gazan minors, born and raised in a state governed by Hamas, are any less extremist than their extremist parents?
Rugian Member	Thu Nov 16 10:19:40 Gaza isn't the UK. Students there don't develop their worldviews in leftwing schools where half of the teachers have Rainbow Flags in their classrokms and "Coexist" bumper stickers on their cars. They're being taught to hate Jews.
Seb Member	Thu Nov 16 10:20:22 Nim: They can. However, I would not call a well synchronised and coordinated attack by multiple teams across a wide geographic area using a range of different modes unsophisticated. Neither did American defence analysts at the time. And the question remains, if Hamas can simply be defeated by a mob of civvies with stones, and the failure of gazans to do so can only be explained in terms of complicity (despite, you know, multiple instances where Hamas has put down protests against it in Gaza); then surely that would imply the Jewish civilians just you know, weren't invested enough in opposing Hamas. It's an absurd position to take.
murder Member	Thu Nov 16 10:29:34 lol @ Iran pretending that they have any capability to engage Israel other than through groups such as Hamas and Hezbollah.
Paramount Member	Thu Nov 16 11:12:29 So if Hamas are terrorists who doesn’t care about civilians and if they are in tunnels under the hospital, why didn’t they blow up the hospital when the IDF entered the hospital?
obaminated Member	Thu Nov 16 11:48:58 Is seb seriously still arguing that the people of gaza didn't condone the actions and behavior of hamas?
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Nov 16 12:45:44 Seb “However, I would not call a well synchronised and coordinated attack by multiple teams across a wide geographic area using a range of different modes unsophisticated.” Relative to what, the zulu and western analyst expectations? Across a “wide geographic area”, the size of a city. If we are going to abuse words like this, then the Islamic state was a super power.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Nov 16 12:50:47 Support for Hamas is widespread among Palestinians (not just in Gaza). Why is it’s own topic, but that is the primary reason they are in power. Sufficient discontent would have paved the way for Fatah to dislodge them.
Paramount Member	Thu Nov 16 13:20:00 ” Support for Hamas is widespread among Palestinians ” I thought Hamas doesn’t care about its own people, that they use them as human shields and that they shoot their own people. How can support for Hamas be widespread under these circumstances?
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Nov 16 14:22:49 Have you ever heard of Stockholm syndrome or abused women that stay with their abusers and make up all kinds of excuses for them? There are tons of people out there that are making choices that are terrible for them. It’s incredible that you actually find it questionable.
Paramount Member	Thu Nov 16 16:39:18 I have heard of it but I doubt it got anything to do with it. The general population in Gaza is just too weak to challenge Hamas and do anything about them. I’d like to compare it to the prisoners in the nazi concentration camps. Too weak to rebel against the guards. And there is still the Wehrmacht (read: the IDF) outside the camp.
obaminated Member	Thu Nov 16 17:37:23 The actions and widespread behavior from hamas and whatever other gazans joined in on during the Oct 7th massacre says everything we need to know about the type of people, culture and mentality that exists in gaza and Palestine as a whole. We didn't go to war against nazis. We went to war against Germany. It's astounding how weak so called men in the west are. And I'll say it once again, you lack the moral fortitude to see the job done. So sit down, shut up and let others do the job that needs doing.
obaminated Member	Thu Nov 16 17:45:58 Seb in 1945: the battle for Berlin has gone on for too long and too many people have died, we should stop the attack and begin negotiations.
obaminated Member	Thu Nov 16 17:46:58 Seb in 1944 Bastogne: "we don't have enough supplies or ammo to stop a German attack, and the Germans are offering us surrender. We should accept!"
obaminated Member	Thu Nov 16 17:50:56 Seb in 1944: I'm with Monty, operation market garden will be a massive success.
murder Member	Thu Nov 16 18:20:12 That was random.
obaminated Member	Thu Nov 16 19:35:11 Parafag brought up nazis, I just rolled with it while taking my 4 pm shit.
obaminated Member	Fri Nov 17 00:32:14 Oh, btw, incase it wasn't clear. Those examples were used to show the historical lack of strength people like seb have and why men of faith and morality have always ignored them.
Paramount Member	Fri Nov 17 01:35:41 http://www...stages-gaza-al-shifa-hospital/ Netanyahu: "We had strong indications that they were held in the Shifa Hospital, which is one of the reasons we entered the hospital,” So they attacked a hospital based on speculations. Netanyahu: "If they were [there], they were taken out," he said. If. So they didn’t know if the POWs were there or not. It was just speculations. Netanyahu: "The less I say about it, the better," Yes. He should shut the fuck up and kill himself.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Nov 17 03:48:10 "Paramount Member Thu Nov 16 16:39:18 I have heard of it but I doubt it got anything to do with it. The general population in Gaza is just too weak to challenge Hamas and do anything about them." There are polls on this, so there is no need for you to guess. Support is widespread. "I’d like to compare it to the prisoners in the nazi concentration camps. Too weak to rebel against the guards." Just that among the Palestinians there is another option, Fatah. I already wrote this. Please read what I write and think before you answer.
Paramount Member	Fri Nov 17 07:31:11 Fatah is not present in Gaza.
Sam Adams Member	Fri Nov 17 08:24:48 Most palestinians are terrorists. http://x.com/paulrubens/status/1725441376639156248?s=20
Rugian Member	Fri Nov 17 08:54:06 ^ yikes. To the anti-Israel people on here, care to comment?
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Nov 17 08:55:23 "Paramount Member Fri Nov 17 07:31:11 Fatah is not present in Gaza." Right. Because Palestinians chose Hamas. It's not exactly rocker surgery.
Rugian Member	Fri Nov 17 08:57:21 And to those saying "well most Gazans alive today didn't vote for them"...if an election were held today, would Hamas ever lose to a non-anti-Semitic pro-peace party?
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