Utopia Talk / Politics / The Gaza encampments

Rugian Member	Sun Apr 28 09:33:13 It’s time to be clear-eyed about the deceptive Gaza encampment movement It has become cliche to say we live in an age where words have lost their meaning. But the responses of many in the media and political classes to the recent wave of “Gaza solidarity encampments” on college campuses have reaffirmed the fact that there is often wisdom in cliches. When I went to see what was going on at the encampment at my school — The George Washington University — on Thursday morning, it was clear within minutes I was standing in the middle of a pro-war and pro-terrorist rally. I heard chants of “There is only one solution, intifada revolution,” calls to “Smash that Zionist settler state,” and declarations that “Resistance is justified when people are occupied.” I looked to my right and saw a huge banner reading “No justice, no peace.” Although calls for an intifada have become normal at such protests, it ought not distract us from how shocking it is for educated Americans to be calling for one. The second intifada, which lasted from 2000 to 2005, featured more than 130 suicide bombings against civilian targets such as buses and cafes — along with countless shooting and stabbing attacks. It was orchestrated by cold-blooded terrorists whose primary aim was (and is) perpetual war in an effort to achieve a “final solution” for the state of Israel. Compromise was not on the table for those rallying at the GW encampment. They yelled, “We don’t want no two-state, we want ’48,” referring to the entire land of Israel. And when an Israeli GW student stood in the middle of the protesters with an Israeli flag, they began screaming in his face, “Settler, settler go back home, Palestine is ours alone.” Later in the day, I saw a man walking around with a hammer and sickle flag, and spoke with an older woman who described the horrors of the second intifada as the Palestinians “rising up against their oppressors.” The demonstrators had bought wholesale into Hamas’s view on the conflict: That there is a duty to take up arms against Israel until it is destroyed. It, sometimes implicitly and sometimes explicitly, rejects the approaches of every other Palestinian faction in favor of only the most radical. However, if one were to look at the descriptions of this event by those in the media and political class, there would be no reason to know anything untoward was occurring. The GW Hatchet — George Washington University’s student newspaper — has described the rallies accompanying the encampment as “pro-Palestine” and advocating for a “ceasefire.” But that is a wholly improper description of people who spent an entire day screaming for an “intifada revolution.” In the Hatchet’s coverage of the encampment, it does not mention Hamas, Oct. 7 or the hostages a single time. Or consider the way members of Congress described the encampment movement. After more than 100 anti-Israel activists were arrested at Columbia University, several members of a bloc of House Democrats known as “the Squad” roundly denounced the police action and labeled it as an “anti-war” protest. Yet videos emerged from the encampment show a speaker saying, “Let it be known that it was the Al-Aqsa Flood that put the Global Intifada back on the table again.” In another, a student is standing in front of a group of pro-Israel counterprotesters with a sign reading “Al-Qassam’s next targets.” Not to mention the fact one of the leaders of Columbia’s encampment said on an Instagram live video that “Zionists do not deserve to live” and that people should “Be grateful that I’m not just going out and murdering Zionists.” The Washington Post published a news piece adopting this exact framing, with the headline, “How antiwar student protests are spreading across U.S. universities.” Ian Bremmer, a prominent political scientist, similarly posted on X a map of what he described as a “map of recent antiwar protests across the usa.” It is impossible to square the statements of those actually in the encampments with the euphemistic labels outsiders are putting on them. It is profoundly dishonest, and it serves a specific purpose: Most people would not have any sympathy or support for a protest movement that it knew was espousing the same views as U.S.-designated terrorist organizations (and sometimes even waving their flags). It is a perfect representation of the motte-and-bailey fallacy, whereby one defends a more palatable position than the one they truly hold when challenged on their beliefs — and then acts as if the easier-to-defend stance (in this case, ceasefire) is synonymous with the sincere, yet more controversial belief (in this case, an “intifada revolution”). We must not fall for it. We must instead be clear-eyed to see the message of these rallies for what they truly are — and uncover this truth for as many people as possible. http://the...tive-gaza-encampment-movement/
Sam Adams Member	Sun Apr 28 20:52:47 Free speech and assembly should be lost with demonstrated low iq
Sam Adams Member	Sun Apr 28 20:53:45 As should voting of course. Or maybe you have to have worked for a minimum of 1 year at a real job first.
jergul large member	Mon Apr 29 05:15:10 Why not go old school and link voting to completing military service. Or at least qualifying for military service (see what I did there?:)?
Seb Member	Mon Apr 29 05:26:35 "It is a perfect representation of the motte-and-bailey fallacy," Ah yes, motte: the protestors are all anti semites. Bailey: a few of them shouted something about Intifada.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Apr 29 16:22:03 That would be fine jergul.
murder Member	Tue Apr 30 08:46:16 Every presidential election cycle there is an outbreak of violent left-wing activism. At some point people are going to have to catch on that they are being manipulated.
Rugian Member	Tue Apr 30 09:56:04 Seb All of the protestors are inherently anti-Semitic. Why single out Israel in the first place as opposed to, say, Myanmar or Sudan? What's the distinguishing feature of Israel that separates it from the others? And don't even start with that "we care about Israel more because our government helps fund them" nonsense. No one of that age is seriously motivated by federal budgetary decisions, and there's no moral imperative present either. Hell, most of these spoiled brat shits probably don't even pay taxes.
murder Member	Tue Apr 30 10:12:46 "All of the protestors are inherently anti-Semitic. Why single out Israel in the first place as opposed to, say, Myanmar or Sudan? What's the distinguishing feature of Israel that separates it from the others?" Yep. Not only that but these same people expend no energy in trying to free the poor innocent Palestinian people from Hamas. Most of these morons are easily manipulated and they have no clue that they are being manipulated.
Paramount Member	Tue Apr 30 13:51:14 ” Why single out Israel in the first place as opposed to, say, Myanmar or Sudan?” Israel is being singled out, indeed. As the only country on the planet who is allowed to invade, occupy, ethnically cleanse and massacre civilians with impunity. Every other country who committs war crimes and crimes against humanity, including Myanmar and Sudan that Rugian is so concerned about, is either being sanctioned or invaded or both of it. So why is Israel singled out in this way? Why is Israel above the law that everyone else has to follow? What's the distinguishing feature of Israel that separates it from the others?
Rugian Member	Tue Apr 30 14:23:47 Oooooh okay. So if only Biden had slapped some random economic sanctions on Israel, that would have totally sapped the motivation behind the protests and we wouldn't be seeing nationwide campus rallies featuring calls of "from the river to the sea" or "there is only solution intifada revolution." Thanks Paramount, I never knew that's how reality worked.
Paramount Member	Tue Apr 30 15:17:40 Not just some random sanctions. But targeted sanctions on all areas. A bombing campaign and a regime change would also be good. ” I never knew that's how reality worked.” Well, now you know.
Rugian Member	Tue Apr 30 15:36:12 Paramount Ask a random 100 pro-Hamas protestors to give you a rundown of the current American sanctions on Myanmar. Hell, ask a 1,000 if you want. I doubt you'll get too many educated answers. You'll be lucky if you can get a majority to point to where Myanmar is on a world map. Sanctions status is not whats driving the anti-Israeli cause dude.
Paramount Member	Tue Apr 30 16:19:56 ”Sanctions status is not whats driving the anti-Israeli cause dude.” All the people on your campuses and everyone else are calling for sanctions. There are calls to stop arms sales to Israel, to boycott Israel, to end genocide, to free Palestine from the illegal occupation. There are calls to hold Israel accountable for its crimes. You know, in the same way all other countries are being punished or held accountable when they violate human rights, the laws of war, the Genocide Convention, etc. No one is calling for all jews to be killed. People protest because Israel enjoys impunity. People are protesting because our governments in the West are supporting Israel in its crimes against humanity. As long as this continues, people will protest. If Israel had been held accountable decades ago, Hamas would likely not have been founded and the October attack would not have happened. The October attack happened because the West allows this insanity to go on. And when I say the West, I mainly mean the USA. The USA is also more or less run by the Israel lobby, Likudniks and Netanyahos. So of course they are going to let the insanity to go on. As will the protests.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Tue Apr 30 16:28:14 "All of the protestors are inherently anti-Semitic" crazy claim & there are Jews participating in the protests ----------- "Why single out Israel in the first place" as we are funding them & supplying weapons (plus what people seeing/talking about on social media/news) ----------- "don't even start with [funding].... No one of that age is seriously motivated by federal budgetary decisions" really? many are demanding university financial divestment from Israel, so they're going even more micro than federal --------- there are plenty just protesting Israel's behavior & w/ good reason & they in fact are not all in support of terrorists or wiping out the Jews (as common sense would also indicate)
Rugian Member	Tue Apr 30 16:36:39 "No one is calling for all jews to be killed." "From the river to the sea" "Intifada revolution" "Free Palestine" - aka, Gaza, which is under the control of a government that refuses to recognize Israel's right to exist "People protest because Israel enjoys impunity." Lol what bullshit. The Biden administration has pretty much been micromanaging Israel's every move for months now because they don't won't to lose the Muslim vote in Dearborn. Israel is literally being held back from prosecuting a war against actual terrorists. Even Hamas concedes that a fair percentage of dead Palestinians were their own fighters. The problem is that the anti-Israel protestors want to prohibit Israel from being able to engage in *war,* period, since war necessarily involves civilian casualties.
murder Member	Tue Apr 30 17:08:28 "crazy claim & there are Jews participating in the protests" So? Clarence Thomas hates black people.
Seb Member	Tue Apr 30 17:09:35 Murder, I really don't get how you come to the conclusion Israel is innocent and Palestinians are guilty. You say things like "I'd fire bomb the Palestinians", but then decry Hamas as being animals for pursuing exactly the policy you prescribe when they have the exact same casus Belli gainst Israel: namely that Israel terrorist groups invaded their lands, slaughtered their people, raped their women, and then the state of Israel elected said groups to their govt and occupied their lands for 70 years doing all the above sporadically. What, in your mind, makes what Hamas does terrible and a sin that damns all palestinans and makes turn a target for firebombing, but which when done by Israeli groups and indeed the Israeli state, still leaves, in your mind, the general population of Israel innocent and attacks on them monstrous. There's a profound lack of consistency there, don't you think?
murder Member	Tue Apr 30 17:11:44 "really? many are demanding university financial divestment from Israel, so they're going even more micro than federal" These aren't original ideas. This is the bullshit being fed to them by college professors ... some terrorists/some just radical anti-semites. These kids fall into two categories. 1. Agitators 2. Easy influenced and don't realize that they are being manipulated.
Dukhat Member	Wed May 01 01:11:32 Never has there been a more clear opportunity to improve our genetic pool by simply shooting terrorist-supporting morons.
Dukhat Member	Wed May 01 01:13:26 35,000 Gazans have died in the war. The population of Gaza doubled in 20 years from 2 million to 4 million. It will only take .35 years for them to reporduce and make up that number. If Israel were committing genocide, it'd be the dumbest fucking genocide ever and Jews are not stupid. They created the atom bomb and bagels.
Paramount Member	Wed May 01 03:27:37 There are more jews in the world today than it was in 1945. So it is just silly to say that the German nazis committed genocide. :P Bwahaha
Seb Member	Wed May 01 04:25:11 Dukhat: You clearly don't understand what genocide is. Israel is trying to do the same thing Serbia did: target an ethnic group in a territory and eliminate the population there by: a. Deliberately targeting them and killing them, so they are encouraged to leave the territory b. Destroying the necessary civil infrastructure for life (water treatment, hospitals, food production and distribution) c. Depriving then of food and water. The fact that doing this with intent meets the tests for genocide is not in question. People have been convicted of it. It is not necessary that any of these actions plausibly result or could result in the death of every palestinan on the planet. Only that it's a targeted attempt to eliminate the palestinan population in gaza and it involves killing a lot of them. The intent isn't really credibly in doubt. The Israeli cabinet members have spoken about this as a war aim, and these tactics, and the goal of cleansing Gaza and settling it with Israeli's.
murder Member	Wed May 01 08:34:20 "What, in your mind, makes what Hamas does terrible and a sin that damns all palestinans and makes turn a target for firebombing, but which when done by Israeli groups and indeed the Israeli state, still leaves, in your mind, the general population of Israel innocent and attacks on them monstrous." Well one difference is one of intent. What I know is ... Palestinians kill X number of Israelis because that is as many as they can kill. Israelis kill X number of Palestinians because they don't want to kill them all. Because they could rather easily if they wanted to. Morality does not restrain Palestinians from murdering Israelis ... capacity does. That is one difference. "There's a profound lack of consistency there, don't you think?" I'm inconsistent. I am biased. I am bigoted.
murder Member	Wed May 01 09:04:13 For Seb: A Tale of Two Death Cults Why am I more bigoted against Hamas/Palestinians than I am against Israelis? To understand that you have to zoom out to see what each one is. These are two death cults. One is aggressively expansionist ... both by proselytizing and by the sword. The other is very much not. One has global ambitions and has taken control of vast amounts of territory stretching multiple continents. The other has only ever controlled a relatively tiny patch of land and has never strayed far beyond it's own borders in an attempt to expand. If both are horrible, one is horrible everywhere, and the other is very much a localized problem. One spreads backwardness and terrorism and war everywhere they go, from Asia, to Africa, to Europe ... and even to college campuses in the US. The other spreads advancement and growth pretty much everywhere they go. One victimizes people wherever they go. The other is victimized pretty much everywhere they go. Furthermore, one group wants us dead and is backed by pretty much every enemy that we have, including some of our "allies" in the region that had a hand in the attacks of 9/11. The other only targets us on occasion and wants us to thrive because we keep giving them money and weapons to defend themselves.
Paramount Member	Wed May 01 10:07:13 Rugian ” All of the protestors are inherently anti-Semitic. ” No they are not. But even if they were, I just learned that hate speech is protected under the 1st Amendment.
Seb Member	Wed May 01 10:26:38 Murder: "Palestinians kill X number of Israelis because that is as many as they can kill." That's a rather sweeping statement. Fateh and the PLO no longer kill any, for example. And even many of the smaller groups would say their intention is to kill as many as necessary to win their freedom. How is that different from Israel, that will kill as many as necessary to maintain the subjugation of Palestinans (and there is no other word for it, Israel having ruled out independence, autonomy, and equal civil rights). How many Elbonians would you be willing to kill if the Elbonians occupied your lands fully? The intent is, actually, identical. "One has global ambitions" This is nonsense. Palestinans have no intent on global ambitions - this is as absurd as claims that Jews control the world etc. justifying pogroms. "has never strayed far beyond it's own borders in an attempt to expand." What's your definition of "Far"? It's occupied the entirety of the Palestinan's land. And one of the party's in Israel's govt is not only the successor to a recognised terrorist group, it's logo is a map of Israel that includes all of Jordan and chunks of Syria (to which it will makes a claim). So which is the real expansionist faction here? The one that has relentless increased its territory (sometimes in wars it started,e.g. suez crisis), which has a stated policy of sabotaging peace treaties and breaking obligations (including to the US) in order to expand further, and whose govt ministers repeatedly advocate for genocidal policies in the present conflict in order to settle Gaza? This is like claiming that Russia's occupation of Europe was fine, because it wasn't far from their borders, and there remained far more European's in Western Europe and the US than East, oh, and Europeans were would be world dominators etc etc. And in any case Europeans repeatedly attacked Russia so it is needed for security. Congratulations, you've made Stalin the good guy in the cold war. It's a bullshit argument: "We're only doing it a bit and besides, it's good when we do it!" "The other spreads advancement and growth pretty much everywhere they go." Really? The living conditions and advancement of Gaza and the west bank, the economic life of which they have controlled for 70 years, have gone backwards. It's easy to make the desert green when you take the water needed for half the population to have a reasonable standard of living and use it for your agriculture. Pretty sure we could make the US deserts bloom if we invaded your country, diverted the Mississippi and shrugged at the resultant water shortages of anywhere it currently feeds and then dismissed Americans of being backwards for not having previously done so. "one group wants us dead and is backed by pretty much every enemy that we have" The principle reason Islamists hate the US is because the US backed Israel's occupation of Arab lands, Arab Dictators, and was then blatantly duplicitous and dishonest in it's enforcement of the peace process. Every reason you cite for supporting the level of violence you advocate against Muslims (because let's be fair, you aren't talking about Gazans and Palestinans when you start talking about world domination) are actions the US has taken against elements of the Arab world. To the extent they justify the actions you support, other than the fact your are an American, they would objectively support the islamic terrorists justifications for attacks on Israel, the US and the West, and worse, the actions by us they cite as justifications predate the ones you cite. Israelis kill X number of Palestinians because they don't want to kill them all.
Seb Member	Wed May 01 10:30:29 Also, you are kinda ignoring the Palestinan Christians. Israel doesn't distinguish. Because it's not about islam, it's about Israeli sovereignty over all of the historic territory (which extends into Jordan and Syria) and ensuring Israel remains a majority Jewish state.
Sam Adams Member	Thu May 02 14:04:39 "Also, you are kinda ignoring the Palestinan Christians." Listen to this chickenshit far left propaganda.
obaminated Member	Thu May 02 16:17:11 Yes, as we all know Christians under hamas and in Palestine at large are treated fairly and justly. They just have deny that they are Christians.
Allahuakbar Member	Fri May 03 10:32:27 http://www...-protest-crackdown-2024-05-03/ DUBAI, May 3 (Reuters) - Yemen's Iran-aligned Houthi militia, which has disrupted global shipping to display its support for Palestinians in the Gaza conflict, is now offering a place for students suspended from U.S. universities after staging anti-Israeli protests. Students have rallied or set up tents at dozens of campuses in the United States in recent days to protest against Israel's war in Gaza, now in its seventh month. Demonstrators have called on President Joe Biden, who has supported Israel's right to defend itself, to do more to stop the bloodshed in Gaza and demanded schools divest from companies that support Israel's government. Many of the schools, including Ivy League Columbia University in New York City, have called in police to quell the protests. "We are serious about welcoming students that have been suspended from U.S. universities for supporting Palestinians," an official at Sanaa University, which is run by the Houthis, told Reuters. "We are fighting this battle with Palestine in every way we can." Sanaa University had issued a statement applauding the "humanitarian" position of the students in the United States and said they could continue their studies in Yemen. "The board of the university condemns what academics and students of U.S. and European universities are being subjected to, suppression of freedom of expression," the board of the university said in a statement, which included an email address for any students wanting to take up their offer.
Paramount Member	Sat May 04 02:29:32 Turkiye cancels all trade with Israel. Nethanyahu is fuming. Says Erdogan is a dictator who wants to be a Sultan. Calls for international sanctions against Turkiye. USA says no to an Israeli invasion of Rafah. We can assume that Netanyahu is fuming because of that too. Will he call for international sanctions on the USA as well??
Earthpig GTFO HOer	Sun May 05 14:59:23 @rug " And don't even start with that "we care about Israel more because our government helps fund them" nonsense. No one of that age is seriously motivated by federal budgetary decisions, and there's no moral imperative present either." This comment is bad faith. I agree that 19 year olds don't care about Israel-Gaza from a balance the budget perspective. But they absolutely care about the fact that US Support is funding and gun running to support a conflict characterized by unusually high civilian casualties. Trying to characterize the most mega woke (even for me) group of college kids as being primarily motivated by racism is hilarious, what's actually going on is a bunch of social conservatives giddy that they, for once, get to play the racism card, even if spurious.
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