Utopia Talk / Politics / How Americans view Europeans

Rugian Member	Sun Sep 29 22:03:24 http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Bkt1vAX0MRM
murder Member	Mon Sep 30 08:09:13 I view them from far away.
williamthebastard Member	Mon Sep 30 12:47:44 Ah, the far right dishonesty. The constant, perfectly conscious lies from the fascists. The terror and refusal of the physical facts of the real world. The childishly transparent attempts at false equivalences. Always pretending its Europe - when its always the entire Western world vs the USA. Its always Canada, Australia, New Zealand, all the western countries that think you have allowed your politics to be governed by businessmen at an insane level, that your gun laws are governed by murderous corporations at an insane level, that think Trump is an insane fascist, that think your violence is at shocking levels for what is supposed to be a developed Western country, that thinks etc etc etc. You pretend, but you know that ehe USA is the outlier among all the western developed countries, not the entire western world. You know it, but you lie. Lying is anti-debate, the destroyer of communication and thus, your infantile dishonesty make you incommunicado to civilized people. You cut off all communication when you lie so obviously. Why would you so ferociously prioritize fantasy above physical reality? Because you are intellectual and moral weaklings.
williamthebastard Member	Mon Sep 30 13:03:28 You know its the entire Western world that sees USA as the violent outlier. And yet, you manage to pretend to yourself that the physical world is the opposite from how you know the physical world actually is. What made you so intellectually and morally inferior? So weak? To constantly invent and accept lies you know are garbage as truth? So without even a hint of sticking to any principles at all? How did you get so debilitated?
williamthebastard Member	Mon Sep 30 13:05:40 * I dont mean you personally, I mean, of course, the roughly 47% of americans who are as weak as you - this culture of intellectual inferiority and moral failing
Forwyn Member	Mon Sep 30 16:41:05 "Canada, Australia, New Zealand, all the western countries" Canada pop: 37m Australia pop: 27m New Zealand pop: 5m It's not 40 to 1, it's more like 500 to 350
earthpig GTFO HOer	Mon Sep 30 23:39:38 "You know its the entire Western world that sees USA as the violent outlier." My kids also think I'm too strict. Normal, it means the parenting is reasonable. One nice thing about Putin. The EU is starting to pay it's fair rent in terms of % GDP on military, to live in our security shadow. Trump, the broken clock, was right twice, and that was one of those times. Poland, of all fucking places, is within a few years of having the strongest armed forces in Europe. Finland, last I checked part of the 'western world' has embraced hiding in the parental skirt. I do not watch the developments and politics of other European countries as closely as those two places, for reasons I think most are aware. Yes, much of the Western World just assumes mommy and daddy will always be there. Other strategic partners, those bordering China for example, those that weren't prioritized both immediately after WW2, and for another 4 decades after (ie, not the firstborn son, and no special goodies), don't take it for granted, are generally fairly grateful.
Seb Member	Tue Oct 01 14:55:52 Earthpig: Unfortunately for the US, once Europe isn't living in the US security shadow, it's going to find out that it's businesses and military will need to start paying for operating in the EUs economic footprint. You guys take the market access and low non-tarrif barriers, overflight rights and free defence footprint for granted. Consider when you were in Iraq, would "old" Europe let you fly you planes and muster your troops through and over it? Nah. Would we go to war with you in Afghanistan under the circumstances of US being marginal rather than core? Nah. Would we host core US strategic capabilities for US homeland defense like the early warning stations, satellite ground control, missile defence etc? Nah. All of that is the quid pro quo that previous generations understood. US defence subsidy of Europe was the small price for extensive market access and European ceding economic, diplomatic and strategic autonomy. But if you remove the subsidy, then what's the point of ceding autonomy? There's no real place here where European countries just beef up on manpower without going for strategic autonomy, and with military autonomy comes the pursuit of diplomatic and economic interests divergent to the US because the US is no longer critical, but ancillary. The EU is pretty ruthless when it comes to pursuing it's economic interests - you'll be looking at something akin to the way China has monstered US firms, but in tech. The motivation and rationale will be "we can't be dependent on the US for these industries as they are foundational to security". It is a major blunder in my view, your undoing the architecture of your postwar success and you won't even save any money doing it.
Seb Member	Tue Oct 01 14:59:35 Hell, you'll probably lose in defence sales alone. The handwringing over Ukraine and limitation on is use of weapons is already hurting US firms (and justifying the outlay on Galileo). I would look out for EU LiDAR constellations given how dependency on US terrain mapping data is preventing UK and France letting Ukraine use SCALP/Stormshaddow.
Seb Member	Tue Oct 01 15:03:12 To some extent though it doesn't matter: the consensus across Europe post Trump (even in the UK) is the US can't be relied on for European defence. That's whats generating the shift. Ukraine accelerated it, but it's essentially inevitable and Russia has succeeded in driving what will become a permanent wedge between the US and Europe as the EU pursues autonomy. This will of course benefit China, not Russia.
jergul large member	Tue Oct 01 15:06:18 Not sure autonomy will pan out. Way easier to just keep divisions in place. China is one thing, but could you imagine a European powerhouse with independent policies? DJouble the trouble. Nip that one in the bud!
williamthebastard Member	Tue Oct 01 15:17:07 "Trump, the broken clock, was right twice, and that was one of those times. " European countries started weaponising in part against the US, in case Trump actually goes all the way in not only supporting Putin morally, but also because the fear is he shares similar perspectives with Putin of former allies, as marks waiting to get stiffed by him. It is not getting the time right twice a day when former allies enter a global weapons race because they think you might be a part of an attack against them. You shortsighted blind man.
williamthebastard Member	Tue Oct 01 15:22:14 When friends start arming themselves in part to protect themselves against you, youve fucked up any trust and friendship with you badly. Only idiots who cant see 3 months ahead think thats clever.
williamthebastard Member	Tue Oct 01 15:27:27 If Russia attacks a NATO country with trump as Potus, European countries are perfectly aligned with the notion that the US will be on Putins side against the Western countries of NATO and their allies. Thus, spending more on arming themselves against a potential Russian attack on a NATO country fully includes the calculation that the US would be counted as a Russian ally under Trump.
Seb Member	Tue Oct 01 15:33:39 Jergul: I think that ship has sailed. Everyone thinks the French were right all along now. Even the UK thinks we need European structures & capabilities in parallel to NATO.
Seb Member	Tue Oct 01 15:34:29 And the EU will see the industrial/economic/trade dimension.
Seb Member	Tue Oct 01 15:39:04 Basically I don't think there's anything the US could do now to put the genie back in the box. It's credibility is shot to bits. If they elected Trump once, they'd do it again; the democrats don't get it; and the relatively sane republicans like EP want Europe to pay for it's own defense while putting US economic interests ahead of Europe's while pursuing US interests globally... Hahaha no.
williamthebastard Member	Tue Oct 01 15:54:27 EP's global vision is classic MAGA/NRA ideology; make everyone even more scared of each other in a global arms race==a postive for the development of advanced human civilization
williamthebastard Member	Tue Oct 01 16:04:40 The essence of EP's/NRA/MAGAs idea of everyone engaging in an arms race by getting everyone to fill their closests with weapons and their heads with fear of each other is the essence of the neverending misery in the ME. It is the ideology of people who entertain ideas that are so stupid, they are a deadly danger to other humans.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Oct 01 16:22:59 Euros butthurt that they have to pay for their own defense lol.
williamthebastard Member	Tue Oct 01 16:23:06 I suspect these kinds of people must suffer from the this horrifically and puerilely misguided fantasy that a peaceful town is where every neighbour has weapons of mass destruction mounted in every window and pointed at every other neighbour's house, thus creating a friendly and orderly neighborhood. This is the fantasy, so far and dangerously removed from reality that I feel ashamed to ackonowledge that members of my species think this badly
williamthebastard Member	Tue Oct 01 16:24:18 raging chimps with guns.
Rugian Member	Tue Oct 01 16:54:30 Earthpig Congrats on joining the MAGA movement brother! Your free AR-15 and copy of Mein Kampf are already in the mail.
earthpig GTFO HOer	Wed Oct 02 00:49:46 I'll shitpost to WTB's shitposting, but the thread took an interesting direction. European and American interests are more aligned than not. There is value in the EU not going along with random acts of American military adventurism, throwing a few wrenches into it. Balance isn't a bad thing. It *is* fair to say that if the US elected Trump (or someone like that) once, they might do it again. It's not a zero sum game. The EU *can't* and *won't* really come into it's own light in the US shadow. Jordan just shot down a bunch of missiles and drones headed for Israel from Iran, they are playing it like they are the Swiss in WW2 shooting down *any* assets that cross into their territory, but we all know they can't shoot down Israeli F-35s, so it's implicitly support of one side, but with plausible deniability to anyone alleging that they are in fact taking sides. International security cooperation doesn't have to come from obvious bedfellows. The current anti air and anti missile stuff in Eastern Europe might in the future be EU tech and EU manned, that doesn't mean all lines of communication are closed. A growing and strong EU... and, hell, lets throw a growing and strong India in there too. So now there are three major power blocs of the world that are broadly democratic and internally respecting of the rule of law. Not a great time to be CPC or Putin or Iran. In this context some ultra-national neo-UN might be viable, a pan democracy security arrangement. An interesting side effect in terms of US weapons development. Historically the US has built shit to counter stated Soviet/Russian capabilities that turn out to be total works of fiction, so we end up developing these insane overkill superweapons (F-15 with it's perfect air to air combat record of >100 kills to 0 losses, F-117 and subsequent stealth aircraft, to pick a few that are publicly known and not up for serious dispute). Now that everyone basically realizes that Russia is full of shit, heavens me, clutching the pearls, what will prompt the US to skip multiple generations ahead unnecessarily in weapons development? Maybe that's where the EU comes in, with the Airbus EuroAir Dominator 9000 or whatever. :P Unfortunately I do still see the "global south," the "developing world," whatever the term of the day is, sort of left behind. Maybe Brazil can step up, idk. I guess I'm playing a game of "Model UN: 2077" with myself at this point.
Seb Member	Wed Oct 02 02:19:06 Earthpig: "European and American interests are more aligned than not." That's a fundamental misreading, or rather, our interests are aligned insofar as transatlantic policy unity is considered axiomatic in Europe due to just *how much* the military alliance with the US is valued. It's no coincidence that the nadir of the Transatlantic alliance was during the early 2000's when Russias threat to Europe seemed to some to be gone. The EU and EU MS position on China is for cautious engagement Vs American policy of containment. It's not a question of throwing a set of wrenches. There's just no way we are going to host US bases any more than you host European ones if we have the capability to defend ourselves, because it means being dragged into US conflicts. You take these for granted, but they are extraordinarily abnormal. But ultimately it comes down to trade. The EU isn't going to continue to allow the US tech monopolists access to its markets and they aren't going to be overly worried about a trade spat with the US if they don't depend on the US for defence. They'll do what China did and squeeze them out in favour of local suppliers, and put up more and more non tariff barriers to prevent foreign acquisition. It is also far less likely to go along with US led sanctions.
Seb Member	Wed Oct 02 04:00:22 Another way to think of it: The US has a hammer. So the EU / EU MSs don't want to buy a hammer. Largely, they don't need it, but it's worth keeping good relationship with the guy with the hammer because hammers are expensive. They let him park his van on their drive, and invite him over for dinner every so often. But now the US is saying that Europe needs to get it's own hammer. Fine, but that's expensive. Throwing all these parties for the hammer guy doesn't look a sensible thing to do anymore. Nor does letting him park on the drive. And now that they have a hammer, all those little problems start looking like nails...
Sam Adams Member	Wed Oct 02 09:47:28 Lets be honest, seb and his people are not going to create a replacement for american tech or defend themselves.
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