Utopia Talk / Politics / Euros: WTF is wrong with you people?

murder Moderator	Wed Aug 27 16:27:32 Out of Europe comes all kinds of opinions on NATO/Soviet relations, NATO expansion, EU expansion, the US missile shield, and all manner of "irritants", "threats" and "provocations" directed by the US and the West towards the Soviets ... And nowhere in the conversation does ANYONE ever object to the Soviets Union's insistence on preserving the capability to nuke the hell out of Europe. Not only are offensive weapons controversial in Europe ... but now purely defensive systems are too. And then to top off that cake ... only countries likely to never be attacked are to be welcome in NATO. F'in brilliant! How soon before NATO's stated policy becomes that any member coming under attack is automatically kicked out of the alliance? *pauses rant*
Seb Member	Wed Aug 27 17:18:58 murder: Because you don't take war seriously enough. You are used to being beyond threat. Britain has some experience in guaranteeing the territorial integrity of small countries under threat. Historically, it has not worked out so well for us, even though we have been lucky. So, Europe is wary on signing blank cheques, but when a gaurantee is given, conversely, it will be honored and it means something. When it comes to it, nobody is going to escalate a caucus squabble to mutually assured destruction. Let Georgia in, and Georgia picks a fight with Russia (which it just did), we have the choice of not responding and it undermining our own mutual credibility to each other and to the Russians, or going to war over something we are not prepared to go to war over. You want to fight over Saakashvalis right to launch a barrage of Grad missiles into a city... if you want to fight over Saakashvallis right to behave like Putin in Chechnya... be my guest. Threaten to nuke Moscow, see if he stops, and if he doesn't be prepared to launch and take the consequences. We are used to living with Russian nukes, we have our own nukes. We know what the limits are.
murder Moderator	Wed Aug 27 17:43:41 "When it comes to it, nobody is going to escalate a caucus squabble to mutually assured destruction." Seb: Translation ... the expansionist Soviets will always get their way because everyone is afraid they will launch. "Let Georgia in, and Georgia picks a fight with Russia (which it just did)" No it did not. Georgia did NOT cross the Georgia/Soviet border ... the Soviets did. The Soviets have been occupying Georgian territory for years. That is not the fault of Georgia ... it is the fault of the spineless "West" that has allowed the Soviets to get away with murder in hopes of mollifying them. "We are used to living with Russian nukes, we have our own nukes. We know what the limits are." redblooded is right ... the EU should just cast off the US and marry the Soviets. We have absolutely nothing worth mentioning in common.
Paramount Member	Wed Aug 27 17:56:51 "the EU should just cast off the US and marry the Soviets. We have absolutely nothing worth mentioning in common. " Since the USA has abandoned the values and all rational thinking that they used to share with the EU and the rest of the freedom loving world. Maybe the EU is right to cut the ties and declare the USA the Ax of Evil.
Standard of Reason Member	Wed Aug 27 17:59:22 "the EU and the rest of the freedom loving world." We don't fine people for speaking ill of our government. Freedom loving...?
Seb Member	Wed Aug 27 19:25:26 murder: Until you are prepared to act like Georgia is as valuable to you as New York, you are in no place to talk. Georgia launched an artillery barrage of grad rockets, indiscriminate anti-personel weapons, for several hours into a city full of civillians, because those civillians will not fall in line and accept Georgian rule. If you want to call that freedom, democracy and apple pie? Be my guest. I'm not going to spend blood and treasure defending that kind of murderous action. There are plenty of reasons to pick a fight with Russia, this isn't one of them. I'd rather fight WWIII over their atrocities in Chechnya. But if you want to go to war to defend area bombing, be my guest. But before picking the mote in someone else eye, look first to the beam in yours.
resolute steve Member	Wed Aug 27 19:34:57 it would not be us picking a fight with russia. I'm not too fussed about what georgia did or didn't do. mainly interested in containing russia. they will challenge us over ukraine next. so lets put troops in georgia. let it be a flashpoint far to the east, rather than too nearby.
Seb Member	Wed Aug 27 20:08:27 Steve: I do not want, and am not prepared to fight, for people who do not subscribe to principles I can recognise as my own. I am not giving an open ended military commitment to a bunch of people who will not give liberty to others nor acknowledge their rights, and are prepared to use force to suppress them. If Georgian want to shell civies like the Russians do, then they deserve Russia, frankly, because the only difference between them is the number of tanks they have and the colour of their flag. The EU is a member based organisation, not an empire.
Rugian Member	Wed Aug 27 20:41:28 "I am not giving an open ended military commitment to a bunch of people who will not give liberty to others nor acknowledge their rights, and are prepared to use force to suppress them." North Ireland ROFL
saiko Member	Thu Aug 28 04:00:34 What's funny about North Ireland?
Camaban Moderator	Thu Aug 28 04:06:48 >>What's funny about North Ireland? << He probably thinks that they're a part of the UK because they're forced.
Seb Member	Thu Aug 28 05:42:44 Rugian: ROFL. When independence was given to Ireland, it was also given to Northern Ireland (a provision to satisfy the catholics and the protestants). The Protestant assembly voted, 1 day later, to join the UK. Hence: Great Britain consists of Scotland, England and Wales, whereas the United Kingdon is Great Britain and Northern Ireland. There is an outstanding treaty between the UK and Ireland regarding the democratic right of Northern Ireland to leave the union, there is also internal provision for that also. So, yeah, if Georgia were to adopt a similar framework for Abkhazia and Ossetia, including a right of return for the ethnically cleansed in Abkhazia, I would have no objection. There would also be no conflict: South Ossetia and Abkhazia would declare independence, Georgia would be constitutionally bound to respect it, and the next day both new countries would be petitioning for federal union with Russia. And you know what? It would screw Russia over as they would lose any legitimate interest in Georgia, we could get them into NATO, and the really good part? Nobody would need to fire salvos of Grad rockets into a city killing innocent people. But this is the caucuses, and it's all about blood and machismo: not democracy and self determination. Saakashvali staked his reputation on bringing SO back under Tiblisi, and he is clearly happy to kill as many civillians as it takes to do that. Far from wanting to support him, I'm far more inclined to send in our forces to stop him. What he did was wrong.
QWOT Member	Thu Aug 28 05:51:52 Seb, Would you support giving NATO membership to Ukraine (if Georgia is a bit too totalitarian for your tastes)? Russia seems to be just as belligerent about Ukraine joining NATO as they are at the thought of Georgia joining NATO.
murder Moderator	Thu Aug 28 05:59:02 "Would you support giving NATO membership to Ukraine" No he wouldn't. Ukraine has very similar problems to Georgia ... meaning they have a Soviet backed separatist region.
murder Moderator	Thu Aug 28 06:06:48 "And you know what? It would screw Russia over as they would lose any legitimate interest in Georgia, we could get them into NATO, and the really good part? Nobody would need to fire salvos of Grad rockets into a city killing innocent people." Seb: And when the Soviets refuse to play along ... you would no doubt favor pelting them with accusations of illegitimacy. You've got to love the European mindset. You actually believe that nonsense about the pen being mightier than the sword.
Seb Member	Thu Aug 28 06:15:08 QWOT: No. Ukraine has a problem in that half of it was part of Russia and never part of Ukraine (Remember the Crimean war?) until Breshnev "gave" it to Ukraine, redrawing an internal boundary in 1957, leaving a very large number of Russians and Russia as part of "Ukraine". If Ukraine votes with a 2% majority to join the EU, the Russian half of the country will want to leave, preferring to keep their economic ties to Russia rather than have a trade barrier descend. NATO would be oblidged to intervene in any civil war. As would Russia, as through base leases, they are in military occupation of half of the country in any case. Until Ukraine puts in some kind of framework to accommodate that kind of division, I'm not prepared to fight over that either. I don't know how to explain this any more clearly: I can not, and will not, support the suppression of self determination by military force. Period. Even if it is a lovely excuse to make war on the hated Russian "soviets". It's why I oppose Israel, it's why I support Kosovo. Occasionally, we can't act on our principles through political realities: China and Tibet. But there is no way in hell I am voluntarily going to support sending troops and cash actively going against those principles. You know what, if I had been around at the time of the US civil war, I'd have been opposed to the Norths war conquer the south, whilst still desiring military action to end slavery (I know that is not what the north was fighting for).
murder Moderator	Thu Aug 28 06:42:34 Balkanization FTW! :o)
murder Moderator	Thu Aug 28 07:03:09 btw where is the love for the Kurds?
Steel Member	Thu Aug 28 08:00:11 The important thing here is that we can't be made dependent on unstable countries like Ukraine and Georgia. Hence they can't be admitted into a binding allience structure as it is. What we can do is to cooperate with Ukr and Geo. and build them a credible territorial defense.
murder Moderator	Thu Aug 28 08:38:57 "Hence ..." Steel: You give the Soviets incentive to engage in aggressive and destabilizing behavior. "What we can do is to cooperate with Ukr and Geo. and build them a credible territorial defense." We could ... but we won't. And why would the Soviets stand by and allow us to do it anyway?
Steel Member	Thu Aug 28 08:41:20 Murder Sell/give them the weapons and see what happens. The sovjets are not that strong, particularely not against well deployed and well used western weapons.
Seb Member	Thu Aug 28 09:01:17 murder: Pro Kurdish independence also.
Seb Member	Thu Aug 28 09:02:33 RE Balkanisation, if you look at the problems in the Balkans, it was not the break up of an artificial state only ever held together by a Communist dictatorship or some kind of Imperial overlord, it was the attempt to retain that autocratic state by force of arms. "Balkanisation" is exactly what Saakashvalli was doing.
murder Moderator	Thu Aug 28 09:19:35 "Pro Kurdish independence also." And people accuse Bush of destabilizing the middle east.
Seb Member	Thu Aug 28 10:26:04 murder: Meta-stability isn't the same as stability.
redblooded Member	Thu Aug 28 10:47:13 Europe has also preserved the ability to nuke Russia, China, the US or any country that dares to nuke Europe. So it would be hypocritical of us to object Russia, or the US for that matters, preserving the capability to nuke us, if we do the same. The missile shield is not a pure defensive system, it actually only really benefits the US if it really works, but more importantly it could make countries think that the people who have that missile shield may be stupid enough to think that it could really protect them from retaliation if they decide to do a first strike. Europe also objected to include Georgia into NATO, while the US was very fervent to adopt Georgia as a member. So Europe made it clear that it was not willing to risk its people for some Georgian madman, while the US made it clear that they were. However, now we see Georgia being attacked and no sign of US armed forces fighting Russia to support the Georgian madman. What we do see are constant US complaints and whining why Europe is not warring Russia... The US is beyond ridiculous, the US is despicable.
shannon Member	Thu Aug 28 10:55:22 'Britain has some experience' Seb, whatever experience in foreign affairs exists is held directly by the current crop of freaks and weirdos in govt (Miliband is A class creepy). They dont hold the wisdom of the ages, they would struggle with the wisdom of the lifespan of a fruitfly. 'So, Europe is wary on signing blank cheques' stop conflating Britain with europe. rb, there are two eu member countries with nukes. The fucktards in Brussels have none of course.
Seb Member	Thu Aug 28 12:11:08 shannon: If you can't analyse Britains recent history, be glad that other people can. We are talking about the recent history of Europe. Americans undertstanding of the 20th century wars is very different, the causes and the outcomes. We have had two major continent wrecking wars in the past 100 years started by unsustainable security guarantees been given by big powers to little countries. The second one was worth it. redblooded: Massive exaggeration. Everyone knows it can't stop Russia. What it does do is deter Iran from building nukes, which is good for Europe.
Master Bates Member	Thu Aug 28 12:25:46 Not only is anyone sane very, very hesitant about military actions towards Russia, a lot of people have a perception, right or wrong, that Georgia is not an innocent little schoolgirl in all this mess to begin with, which really complicates matters and makes people a lot less inclined to feel much empathy.
swordtail Member	Thu Aug 28 13:53:13 "What it does do is deter Iran from building nukes, which is good for Europe." yeah i'm sure that's what gonna deter iran from getting nukes,if they ever TRULY want to get some. get real.
Steel Member	Thu Aug 28 13:55:55 We should arm georgia and Ukr. Not for the sake of geo or Ukr. but because we wish to annoy russia and keep the vodka drinking bear away and at bay.
Dick Swinger Member	Thu Aug 28 14:05:37 You mean you wish to annoy russia and bring him closer pawing at the ground.
swordtail Member	Thu Aug 28 14:07:36 "We should arm georgia and Ukr. Not for the sake of geo or Ukr. but because we wish to annoy russia and keep the vodka drinking bear away and at bay." that's what you have been doing and the bear ain't going away or staying at bay. maybe you should try something new,you know something that isn't stupid and hypocritical. but hey you got terrorism to eradict first and let me tell you,you guys ROCK! with how that's going. keep up the good work!
werewolf dictator Member	Thu Aug 28 15:04:21 danemark afraid of polar bears too. cant be too safe keeping bears at bay.
Seb Member	Thu Aug 28 17:11:48 swordtail: They want to get nukes because it gives them clout. If they need to get 50 nuclear missiles to have a reasonable clout, rather than 10, then it raises the bar for them significantly, and they may no longer be willing to bare the cost. Get it? The strategy worked once before, the mere threat of starwars and another arms race helped tip the balance in Russia from maintaining a confrontational cold war and moving towards perestroika and glasnost.
swordtail Member	Thu Aug 28 18:18:29 Seb: how the fuck do you know they want to get nukes? are you a fucken mindreader? or, is it amazing intel that your bullshit country and your cocksucking american fudgepacking partners have somehow gotten a hold of,you know ala let's invade iraq,which of course turned out to be complete bullshit? maybe it's all that talk by iran's prez about roasting jewish babies alive in the name of allah,or about how he personnally will butt fuck all westerners without lube even! up until this point in time,all talk about iran getting themselves nukes is pure bullshit according to the IAEA. that being said,you are truly stupid if you really believe that afew CRAPPY patriot type missiles in polackville or anywhere else will raise the bar significantly,should iran decide to join all the other hypocrites in the nuke club. "The strategy worked once before, the mere threat of starwars and another arms race helped tip the balance in Russia from maintaining a confrontational cold war and moving towards perestroika and glasnost." hey seb wake up,guess what,the arms race never stopped. and guess what again,the cold war never went away. it probably could have gone away if your american pimps, err, my bad, i meant NATO wasn't so intent on getting into russia's face all over the place, err my bad again, what i meant to say was if you guys weren't so busy spreading democracy and love all over the world,and of course, let's not forget your noble war on terror.
Seb Member	Thu Aug 28 19:26:57 swordtail: Fine. You want to pretend they are not aiming to get to a nuclear threshold status, be my guest. Put the word want in front of the sentence. It still stands. Come back when you are sober.
Seb Member	Thu Aug 28 19:28:35 *"put the word might before want in front of the sentence"
Seb Member	Thu Aug 28 19:29:11 RE patriot, see the thread on NMD. But please, sober up first.
swordtail Member	Thu Aug 28 20:14:48 Seb: i'm not pretending nothing. i just want to know about your amazing mindreading skills. are they naturally occuring or did you have to get some implant? and even if they were aiming to get to a nuclear threshold status who are you or anyone else to say they can't or shouldn't? oh right,it's cause nukular weapons are bad. or,they might get ideas and then maybe they'll be wanting to rape little countries of their natural resources and be installing their own pet dictators etc,err my bad again i meant they might want to go around and help spread democracy and love,but wait that's what you enlightened fucktards are already doing. i know what it is,they aren't as good as you guys at labeling who is undesirable and who isn't. that's it,they ain't righteous enough.
shannon Member	Fri Aug 29 06:12:15 'We have had two major continent wrecking wars in the past 100 years started by unsustainable security guarantees been given by big powers to little countries.' Astonishingly incorrect comment there from seb. Britain went to war because our leaders thought it was the best option, not because of some scrap of paper. Thats just crazy talk. 'If you can't analyse Britains recent history, be glad that other people can.' I can and do seb. And so can others. Holding a British passport really has absolutely nothing to do with it. Being British wont give you any special insight into matters, in fact as you have shown it lead to quite the opposite conclusion... Russia acts aggressively out of weakness, not strength. The Georgia incident is a display of russias KGBocracy fumbling to find domestic respect.
murder Moderator	Fri Aug 29 06:55:44 "We have had two major continent wrecking wars in the past 100 years started by unsustainable security guarantees been given by big powers to little countries. The second one was worth it." Seb: Was it really? You don't think it would've been better for the British to stay out of that mess, build up your defenses and just try to contain that mess? What exactly did you gain that justifies the cost?
Seb Member	Fri Aug 29 07:16:27 Swordtail: "who are you or anyone else to say they can't or shouldn't?" Who are you to say the Americans should not put up a missile system to defend against that? If you seriously think Iran is a better country than America to have foreign policy relations with, I suggest you go to Lebanon for a few months.
Seb Member	Fri Aug 29 07:20:57 murder: We could not have contained NAZI Germany. One way or another, British involvement lead to Western Europe staying a liberal democracy, and we got over our stupid Empire fixation.
Seb Member	Fri Aug 29 07:21:59 shannon: "Russia acts aggressively out of weakness, not strength. The Georgia incident is a display of russias KGBocracy fumbling to find domestic respect." It would be wrong to conclude that a man lacking a knife doesn't have a gun.
murder Moderator	Fri Aug 29 12:57:15 "We could not have contained NAZI Germany." Why the hell not? Heck staying out of it might have freed up the flow of material from the US even sooner. They had bigger fish to fry out East anyway.
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