Utopia Talk / Politics / How to surrender

Paramount Member	Sun Mar 16 09:00:50 A guide on how to surrender http://youtube.com/shorts/_hXqhwzUiKM
LazyCommunist Member	Sun Mar 16 09:13:24 It's good that you prepare for surrender. Sad fact is that Sweden helped Ukraine so much that we will never forget it and one day you will get the punishment. On that day you have to remember that video.
Rugian Member	Sun Mar 16 10:07:41 Is it too much to ask for a sane position on this war? - America shouldn't be funding a European conflict - Ukraine is unquestionably the good guy in this war and Russia is unquestionably the bad - Wild accusations like Ukraine being a neo-Nazi regime or the war being the product of a Jewish plot to conquer Europe should be rejected by all sane people
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sun Mar 16 10:26:11 Rugian Remember that time when European soldiers, even non-Nato soldiers fought and died in Afghanistan? And that was just for solidarity, not because you needed it. Also, we have been over this. You are paying your military industry, you are saving some money not having to pay for the disposal of equipment and ammo you are not using. The real costs when actually calculated would be the mountain of narratives out of a mole hill of actual money. The American aid, mostly stays in the US, EU aid does not.
Rugian Member	Sun Mar 16 10:43:29 Nimatzo I wouldn't have brought up Afghanistan if you wanted to convince people that we should stay involved in Ukraine. The US just managed to get itself out of the forever wars - the conflicts that had literally run for over half of my life. Mission creep and a lack of any vision regarding exit strategy turned what could have been a relatively short-lived campaign into a two decade-long slog. Over the past three years, there has been precisely zero insight from our government about what the end goal of the Ukrainian war is. Well, "Russia agrees to halt hostilities and return all Ukrainian territory to Ukraine," but that's not a realistic stance and anyone with a brain knows it. So, you are asking us to once again get involved in another prolonged conflict with no real idea of what "victory" would look like. And I'm sorry, but we're kinda tapped out on that sort of thing at the moment.
Rugian Member	Sun Mar 16 10:47:23 And I will fully concede that the new administration's talking points haven't always been great. Yes it's true, the UK hasn't independently prosecuted a war in the last four decades, so it's not known how good they would be at one. That said, they did provide troops to our GWOT campaigns, and Vance not at least acknowledging that is a poor diplomatic move. The blowup in the Oval Office was just, dumb. We could certainly be more tactful with our European friends (who are still our friends, despite Seb's utter histrionics). But you guys need to be able to set at least some basic parameters on how we bring this conflict to and end.
LazyCommunist Member	Sun Mar 16 11:00:54 You bring this conflict to an end by surrendering. Putin has said numerous times what he wants: -he wants the land that has been annexed -ukrainian military must be reduced in size -ukraine is no longer allowed to have long range missiles and so on. Just give him all he wants and the war will be over. Yes it will be a surrendering for ukraine and so for its allies. But then we will have peace. For 2 or 3 years at least.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sun Mar 16 11:10:45 Rugian You shifted to goal post from ”we shouldn’t fight a european conflict” to a discussion about strategic end game.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sun Mar 16 11:15:08 ”So, you are asking us to once again get involved in another prolonged conflict with no real idea of what "victory" would look like.” Russia not winning and killing itself in the process. You should never have left Afghanistan, just like you have not left Iraq. Afghanistan borders China, the USA had had no combat deaths for a long long time. How you have mismanaged both Afghanistan and Ukraine sends bad signals to all our enemies. Trump is right now making us looks weak, disorganized and feeble. Even if I agree with half of it, doing it in public is beyond retarded.
Rugian Member	Mon Mar 17 07:45:05 Nim No, there's no goal post moving. A conflict in Europe's backyard should be Europe's responsibility. Europe is a First World civilization with access to all of the modern technologies of today, a GDP to rival the US, and a population approaching half a billion. You absolutely have the resources to defend your turf. So you need an extraordinarily good reason why the US should stay involved. And that's where this completely falls apart, because you don't have one. You want to maintain a stalemated war of indefinite length? With a regional nuclear power led by an unstable government? That is just asking for something to go sideways. Just look at the unexpected fallout from our previous wars. Invading Iraq benefited a whole host of bad actors in the region, from Iran to ISIS. Bombing Libya caused Muslim insurgencies to run rampant throughout North Africa. Our attempts to maintain South Vietnam's independence somehow resulted in atrocities in Laos and Cambodia. And now you are talking about risking such unpredictable fallout with Russia. Which could also realize that it's in a stalemate and decide to take more extreme measures to break the deadlock. And it's one of the few countries on the planet with the ability to do that. So no. I'm not interested in participating in a perpetual war that could flare up at any moment into something more major. There needs to be an objective that results in peace.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Mar 17 09:28:03 “A conflict in Europe's backyard should be Europe's responsibility.” Remember that time when European soldiers, even non-Nato soldiers fought and died in Afghanistan? And that was just for solidarity, not because you needed it. “You absolutely have the resources to defend your turf.” We have the monetary resource, we currently lack the industrial capacity and some technologies, but most the production capabilities. That is the largely US role here. We barely have enough capacity to supply Ukraine with the ammo it needs. Europe does not have a starlink type system, US intelligence capabilities are also very valuable. I’m sorry you have no idea what you are talking about. Europe should and is paying much more for this no matter how you calculate it. Your defence industrial workers, get to work, they rack up skills, your weapon systems are tested in the battlefield and supply you with valuable data. The USA is the only winner. “You want to maintain a stalemated war of indefinite length?” As long as the Ukrainians wants to fight, I will give them the weapons. Every day that goes by the Russian demographics is irreparably damaged and less of a future threat. This is not rocket science. “That is just asking for something to go sideways.” We have to have balls and not be fucking pussies who bow for nuclear bullying. I don’t buy this bullshit, from day one it was complete horseshit. Nuclear powers have lot wars without destroying the world. Russia’s primary objective of taking all of Ukraine was rekt so badly and so publicly, a massive embarrassment. No nukes. Wagner did an almost coup, Russia remained stable genius. No Nukes. “Just look at the unexpected fallout” There is no way to sugar coat this, you are, unfortunately giving voice to a stagnate loser mentality. Because we made a couple of bad calls, we are going to stop trying. This mentality that has infected your nation will be your end. It is not the entrepreneurial spirit that built it. “There needs to be an objective that results in peace.” Absolutely. Let’s abolish violence and war and send all the bad people away forever. But seriously the new “peace movement” is the most cringe thing I have seen in recent memory. It is up there with the stop oil morons who glue themselves to the pavement and throw soup on paintings. Honestly Rugian, I am not even sure if you are serious or trolling at this moment.
Paramount Member	Mon Mar 17 09:56:57 Some 30 NATO officers trapped in Kursk http://youtu.be/s4JNO1kjn9M Why should Russia spare their lives?
Forwyn Member	Mon Mar 17 11:30:43 "- Ukraine is unquestionably the bad guy in this war and Russia is unquestionably the bad" ftfy
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