Utopia Talk / Politics / Covid meds are like vitamins

williamthebastard Member	Wed Mar 26 10:40:12 ...compared to this patient information brochure Im working on for cancer patients who they want to paticipate in a clinical trial of a new cancer drug that may prolong their lives but "will cause irreversible kidney damage". I was surprised that that had managed to get past the ethics committee in Texas, so I googled the active substance: "They are among world's most poisonous mushrooms as they contain the highly toxic compound orellanine. The best-known species are the deadly webcap..." Holy crap. Yeah, that will likely "cause irreversible kidney damage".
williamthebastard Member	Wed Mar 26 10:43:05 I wouldnt be surprised if most of the Texans participating as guinea pigs in a trial with one of the most deadly toxins known to man still think covid medicines were a deadly scandal
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Mar 26 11:13:00 Number one. Kidney damage is usually irreversible. Two. People drafted for these studies often have no other options and are terminal. Three. Current cancer medication like chemo therapy and radiation, cause all kinds of damage, like irreversible kidney damage and... secondary cancer. Four. You are a fucking moron.
murder Member	Wed Mar 26 11:56:54 There are no safe cancer drugs. It's all about balancing the potential benefit with the risks. "People drafted for these studies often have no other options and are terminal." Or as the orange one would say ... "they have no cards!" -
williamthebastard Member	Wed Mar 26 12:04:32 Yeah, but one of the most toxic substances that they assure you will destory your kidney is pretty heavy stuff. I mentioned it to a doctor friend of mine who's head of a medical clinic and he couldnt believe it had been approved by an ethics committee.
williamthebastard Member	Wed Mar 26 12:06:29 And apart from him being a specialist consultant, he's also published medical research papers. This is not normal.
williamthebastard Member	Wed Mar 26 12:10:58 Ive worked on hundreds of clinical trials and theyre always very, very careful and strict about adverse effects.
murder Member	Wed Mar 26 14:36:40 When death is the alternative, what does adverse effect mean? Finding a new kidney is much easier than reversing a cancer death. -
williamthebastard Member	Wed Mar 26 14:54:21 I doubt that receiving a new kidney is going to be at all easy for someone terminally ill with cancer. Im just saying that Ive never seen anything like as serious adverse side effects as this in hundreds of trials, and neither has the senior consultant and head of a medical clinic that I mentioned it to. That one of the definite adverse side effects of a clinical trial is that you will suffer irreversible damage to vital organs is unusual, to say the very least. You might live a little longer but with increased discomfort. "Potential Benefits: If the investigational medication is successful, you might live longer Potential Risks: The investigational medication will cause irreversible kidney damage."
williamthebastard Member	Wed Mar 26 15:03:29 Also very peculiar is that the goal of the trial is, as is usually the case, to study the safety (and efficacy) of the investigational medication. Here, rather that studying how safe it is, it would seem more appropriate to say they want to study how harmful or lethal it is. Thats usually what theyre doing when the trial is still in its in vivo phase.
williamthebastard Member	Wed Mar 26 15:06:58 Additionally, they always say, if you experience any of the following adverse side effects, contact the investigator immediately. Here, its you WILL experience very serious adverse side effects.
williamthebastard Member	Wed Mar 26 15:09:44 I can only imagine that the patients being asked to participate in something so damaging are patients with only a month left to live or something
williamthebastard Member	Wed Mar 26 15:22:13 Far from donating organs to terminally ill people, often when it comes to serious surgery in very ill patients, there's even a box ticked: Resusciation: No Meaning, if his lights go out during the operation, theyre not going to put in a massive effort and wheel up all their most expensive equipment to revive him and instead record his time of death.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Mar 26 15:38:09 You’re a fucking moron who does not understand the words you translate let alone have even basic appreciation for medical research. There is zero chance you are relaying the information adequately to us or your ”doctor friend”. ”I doubt that receiving a new kidney is going to be at all easy for someone terminally ill with cancer.” You get dialysis you imbecile. Taken at face value, you don’t grasp the risk reward of kidney damage and needing dialysis versus DYING. ”Ive worked on hundreds of clinical trials” ROFL! Is that what you tell your mother? Ahahahah.
williamthebastard Member	Wed Mar 26 15:50:14 ”When death is the alternative, what does adverse effect mean? Finding a new kidney is much easier than reversing a cancer death.” Its not being offered as a viable form of treatment with a decent chance of success, rather there’s zero chance of any notable success. Its a trial. They’re testing it to see what happens. Losing your kidneys and highly unlikely to receive new ones means spending your remaining life hooked up to a hemodialysis machine 24/7, so zero outlook on anything other than a temporary extension of life confined to a bed with tubes sticking out of you.
williamthebastard Member	Wed Mar 26 15:51:08 *on anything other than a possible temporary extension of life
obaminated Member	Thu Mar 27 08:56:05 "Is that what you tell your mother?" Rofl.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Mar 27 10:57:45 Reading wtb's last posts, it’s astonishing that, despite supposedly working on clinical trials *even as a translator* he has managed to stay this fucking clueless about their actual purpose. A clinical trial is not about offering a guaranteed treatment with a "decent chance of succes". Dumbass actually references HUNDREDS trial work and still says this, never mind the dozen of biotech start ups that go to zero every year failing clinical trials. LOL :) On top of that, even more astonishing he does not fathom what a TERMINAL disease means and fails miserably in empathizing with people and why they would be willing to take the risks. Like an emotionless and soulless automoton he dismiss it as a “temporary extension of life” like it’s nothing. Though considering his behavior in a recent thread where a dear poster reached out for help, this is actually less astonishing when you think about it. The guy is a fucking sociopath. Life is not fair when decent people have to suffer an illness like cancer and die, while WTB gets to be alive and ride around oh his gay electric scooter. http://www...nitiate-studies-in-the-us/?p=5 Anyway I found the trial turd brain is talking about Swedish company and done in Texas. Phase 1/2 (purpose of phase 1 and 2: is it safe and does it work), explicitly says "75 patients with severe metastatic *renal cancer requiring dialysis* will be enrolled. Meaning their kidneys are gone, they are hooked up to a machine and have no other options. Didn't I tell you that there was zero chance WTB was relaying the information correctly? Now watch him spam random threads projecting sexual violence towards my family.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Mar 27 11:00:28 Just for context: Phase 1: Is it safe. Phase 2: Does it work. Phase 3: Does it work better than standard therapy. Turd brain fucked even this up. But remember he has worked on HUNDREDS of trials and has a doctor friend. LOL :)
williamthebastard Member	Thu Mar 27 11:25:45 ncel spam block: On. Interestingly, there has actually some controversy surrounding ethical controls of this and similar trials - note that they point out the profit problem formulated as ”industry funded” "Conclusions and relevance: The findings suggest that a substantial fraction of noninferiority trials in oncology, most of which are industry funded, lack justification for such a design. Greater attention to the use of noninferiority designs in randomized clinical trials of cancer drugs from local and national regulators is warranted."
williamthebastard Member	Thu Mar 27 11:25:58 Incel spam block: On. Interestingly, there has actually some controversy surrounding ethical controls of this and similar trials - note that they point out the profit problem formulated as ”industry funded” "Conclusions and relevance: The findings suggest that a substantial fraction of noninferiority trials in oncology, most of which are industry funded, lack justification for such a design. Greater attention to the use of noninferiority designs in randomized clinical trials of cancer drugs from local and national regulators is warranted."
williamthebastard Member	Thu Mar 27 11:27:04 " Industry funding was associated with lack of justification "
williamthebastard Member	Thu Mar 27 11:43:16 One critical statement: "Proven superiority cannot be used to guide treatment sequence selection in xxxxx. Instead, therapeutic planning requires us to take a long-term view of our patient's treatment that includes quality of life and a balance between symptom control, adverse event management and avoidance of unnecessary drug interruptions or dose reductions. In the absence of curative therapies, sustaining a patient's quality of life is a major goal throughout the course of treatment and choosing a second-line agent that is able to adequately achieve this by limiting adverse events should be a priority."
williamthebastard Member	Thu Mar 27 11:56:26 The Swedish connection is that the compound was designed by a Swedish company who found it easier to get approval for clinical trials in Texas than in Sweden...
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Mar 27 12:23:42 LOL For those that missed it, fucking retard who was so worried about irreversible kidney damage, “forgot” to tell you that the patients recruited for the trial have no kidney function and are hooked up on dialysis, as they have terminal stage 4 kidney cancer. Another thread to bookmark for the list :-)
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Mar 27 13:44:19 Shocking that the country leading global innovation in cancer therapies has a regulatory environment that facilitates said innovation. The same guy is clueless about why people would take risks to extend their lives a bit longer. Vacuous slogans and empty virtue signaling, but when it comes to actual output, actually doing anything efficacious *fart noise*. However, that does not stop him from doing his cynical illiterate takes on those that actually do. Worthless turd.
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