Utopia Talk - Politics - France & nukes: How is this better?

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Utopia Talk / Politics / France & nukes: How is this better?

murder
rank Tue Mar 03 00:36:08
France to boost nuclear arsenal and extend deterrence to European allies

France is to boost its nuclear arsenal and extend the deterrent to cover other European countries, in a major development of its nuclear defence policy.

In a speech in Brittany, President Emmanuel Macron explained the changes as the response to an increasingly unstable strategic environment.

"The next 50 years will be an era of nuclear weapons," he said.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cj4zlnezrl7o

murder
rank Tue Mar 03 00:37:16

Why is it preferable for France to expand it's nuclear arsenal rather than other European nations developing their own arsenals?

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Pillz
rank Tue Mar 03 00:53:26
Name a european nation that wants nukes that you think should have them

murder
rank Tue Mar 03 01:05:47

I don't know who wants nukes, but I know that trusting the French to provide a nuclear umbrella is insanity. France is not going to get Paris nuked to defend Warsaw.

Although the same goes for the US.

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Seb
rank Tue Mar 03 03:57:30
Murder:

Much faster, and avoids breaking the NPT which remains in Europes interest. If the NPT collapses and nuclear proliferation happens I expect many more EU states will develop nukes.

Seb
rank Tue Mar 03 04:05:19
Murder:

"France is not going to get Paris nuked to defend Warsaw."

You misunderstand the level of independence between EU member states - it's much more akin to saying "Washington isn't going to risk getting nuked over Hawaii" - which is also probably true. Warsaw is more vital to France than some parts of France.

But core Vs periphery ambiguity and risk of Salami slicing in deterrence logic is as old as nuclear weapons.

But you are also misunderstanding the point of forward basing nukes - its a nuclear tripwire force, that's all. It provides a degree of deterrence in attacking the base where the nukes are in terms of having to wonder whether the nuclear power will incorrectly perceive it as part of a counter-force strategy triggering an escalatory spiral.

Cf. How Russia and Ukraine have exploited nuclear power plants to some degree to "protect" co-located forces.

Sam Adams
rank Tue Mar 03 05:46:13
"Why is it preferable for France to expand it's nuclear arsenal rather than other European nations"

Because then we know they would never used lol.

murder
rank Tue Mar 03 11:32:32

"Much faster, and avoids breaking the NPT which remains in Europes interest."

How many times does the NPT need to be violated before you recognize that it has collapsed?

Point to one part of that treaty that hasn't been repeatedly violated.

murder
rank Tue Mar 03 11:43:13

For fucks sake, NATO's nuclear sharing is a violation of fucking article 1 of the NPT.

This is why Americans can't take Europeans seriously. You are all a bunch of Bill Clintons trying to debate what the definition of "is" is, when we all know you've been fucking the fat chick.

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Habebe
rank Tue Mar 03 15:59:05
I'm actually surprised WTB hasnt posted in this thread 36 times yet....

Habebe
rank Tue Mar 03 16:19:10
"You misunderstand the level of independence between EU member states - it's much more akin to saying "Washington isn't going to risk getting nuked over Hawaii" - "

But god forbid someone compares the EU tonthe US in a similar fashion and the whining begins....

A bunch of states getting together a super state, very different cultures with a.fair amount of regional similarities.....

Seb
rank Tue Mar 03 22:58:00
Murder:

Only one signatory has ever left the NPT - North Korea - and no non nuclear signatory has developed NPTs in breach of it.

And the only reason the Norks did it was the US repeatedly breaking its treaties and making casual idle threats to invade.

Ironically the same situation now in Iran, which actually did shut down it's centrifuges and submit to monitoring until you broke the treaty.

"NATO's nuclear sharing is a violation of fucking article 1 of the NPT."

Actually it doesn't, and that was discussed during development as NATO sharing predates the NPT.

show deleted posts

murder rank	Tue Mar 03 00:36:08 France to boost nuclear arsenal and extend deterrence to European allies France is to boost its nuclear arsenal and extend the deterrent to cover other European countries, in a major development of its nuclear defence policy. In a speech in Brittany, President Emmanuel Macron explained the changes as the response to an increasingly unstable strategic environment. "The next 50 years will be an era of nuclear weapons," he said. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cj4zlnezrl7o
murder rank	Tue Mar 03 00:37:16 Why is it preferable for France to expand it's nuclear arsenal rather than other European nations developing their own arsenals? -
Pillz rank	Tue Mar 03 00:53:26 Name a european nation that wants nukes that you think should have them
murder rank	Tue Mar 03 01:05:47 I don't know who wants nukes, but I know that trusting the French to provide a nuclear umbrella is insanity. France is not going to get Paris nuked to defend Warsaw. Although the same goes for the US. -
Seb rank	Tue Mar 03 03:57:30 Murder: Much faster, and avoids breaking the NPT which remains in Europes interest. If the NPT collapses and nuclear proliferation happens I expect many more EU states will develop nukes.
Seb rank	Tue Mar 03 04:05:19 Murder: "France is not going to get Paris nuked to defend Warsaw." You misunderstand the level of independence between EU member states - it's much more akin to saying "Washington isn't going to risk getting nuked over Hawaii" - which is also probably true. Warsaw is more vital to France than some parts of France. But core Vs periphery ambiguity and risk of Salami slicing in deterrence logic is as old as nuclear weapons. But you are also misunderstanding the point of forward basing nukes - its a nuclear tripwire force, that's all. It provides a degree of deterrence in attacking the base where the nukes are in terms of having to wonder whether the nuclear power will incorrectly perceive it as part of a counter-force strategy triggering an escalatory spiral. Cf. How Russia and Ukraine have exploited nuclear power plants to some degree to "protect" co-located forces.
Sam Adams rank	Tue Mar 03 05:46:13 "Why is it preferable for France to expand it's nuclear arsenal rather than other European nations" Because then we know they would never used lol.
murder rank	Tue Mar 03 11:32:32 "Much faster, and avoids breaking the NPT which remains in Europes interest." How many times does the NPT need to be violated before you recognize that it has collapsed? Point to one part of that treaty that hasn't been repeatedly violated.
murder rank	Tue Mar 03 11:43:13 For fucks sake, NATO's nuclear sharing is a violation of fucking article 1 of the NPT. This is why Americans can't take Europeans seriously. You are all a bunch of Bill Clintons trying to debate what the definition of "is" is, when we all know you've been fucking the fat chick. -
Habebe rank	Tue Mar 03 15:59:05 I'm actually surprised WTB hasnt posted in this thread 36 times yet....
Habebe rank	Tue Mar 03 16:19:10 "You misunderstand the level of independence between EU member states - it's much more akin to saying "Washington isn't going to risk getting nuked over Hawaii" - " But god forbid someone compares the EU tonthe US in a similar fashion and the whining begins.... A bunch of states getting together a super state, very different cultures with a.fair amount of regional similarities.....
Seb rank	Tue Mar 03 22:58:00 Murder: Only one signatory has ever left the NPT - North Korea - and no non nuclear signatory has developed NPTs in breach of it. And the only reason the Norks did it was the US repeatedly breaking its treaties and making casual idle threats to invade. Ironically the same situation now in Iran, which actually did shut down it's centrifuges and submit to monitoring until you broke the treaty. "NATO's nuclear sharing is a violation of fucking article 1 of the NPT." Actually it doesn't, and that was discussed during development as NATO sharing predates the NPT.
	show deleted posts

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