Utopia Talk / Politics / my god trump is a pussy

Sam Adams rank	Mon Jun 08 00:08:19 Lol what a retard. His pathological obsession with a "deal" rather than victory will go down in history.
Jesse Malcolm Barack rank	Mon Jun 08 00:57:38 dude trumps running scared about the midterms and was tweeting shizz about how him and the ayatollah are buddies who will run the strait together as partners months ago whatever deal he gets will be worse than obamas one and iran will be stronger than before he attacked but trump will pretend he won and foxnews and maga will go along with it
Habebe rank	Mon Jun 08 02:11:52 I don't think Trump gives a fuck about midterms. He is probably more concerned with his legacy, and this Iran excursion has turned into a shitshow. I feel like the military knew it would end up basically a pointless venture, we bombed them, tooknout some old shitty conventional equipment and then wouldn't commit what was needed to accomplish the objective. So like I said early on...IF we had actual regime change, that would be good, BUT it's not worth what it would take.
Jesse Malcolm Barack rank	Mon Jun 08 02:14:35 dude trumps demanding repubs gerrymander every state mid cycle to stop him being a lame duck and prevent another impeachment he's panicking
Habebe rank	Mon Jun 08 02:39:09 Lame duck is probably a good ending to his term, limits the BS.
Seb rank	Mon Jun 08 09:30:21 It's almost as if the US can't achieve victory more a deal as good as JCPOA (now that Iran knows the US can't actually destroy the regime, and they can quite easily deny access to the strait). It's almost as if everyone sensible has told you this for years. It's almost as if this delusional belief in omnipotence has already played out with another *axis of evil* member 20 years ago during which republicans and idiots on this board have learned absolutely nothing. NaMBLA thinks trump is dumb for losing, while not realising he's the dumby for insisting on a military solution in the first place.
Sam Adams rank	Mon Jun 08 09:36:29 The US could easily achieve this militarily. Lmao seb=trump=neville
TheChildren rank	Mon Jun 08 09:38:55 ya u lost...months ago time 2 wakey wakey alan
Seb rank	Mon Jun 08 09:59:38 NaMBLA: If it could, it would have.
Sam Adams rank	Mon Jun 08 22:59:54 Nah. A 747 can fly from london to Bangladesh. With a good pilot of course. If I put you up you wouldnt even make it to the runway.
murder rank	Mon Jun 08 23:30:58 Trump doesn't have any good choices. He tried bombing them, but the regime didn't collapse and the people didn't revolt. Short of a ground invasion, the blockade is all he's got, and that will take a long time to work, and it will drive energy costs higher, and the mid-terms are coming up. It also takes forever to ramp up the production of high end interceptors. Netanyahu handed Trump a tar-baby. -
Seb rank	Tue Jun 09 00:44:53 Murder: Trump handed trump a tar baby. Obama had sorted the Iran issue with JCPOA, Trump decided to pull it to bits. Just like Clinton sorted North Korea but Bush decided to screw it up.
Sam Adams rank	Tue Jun 09 07:12:11 "Obama had sorted the Iran issue with JCPOA" You are faking being this retarded right?
Seb rank	Tue Jun 09 07:20:04 No NaMBLA - what we see now is the exact consequence of you being retarded over the last 10 years in pretending ing that it wasn't because that would have meant accepting a black man did a decent job.
Sam Adams rank	Tue Jun 09 07:37:51 a decent job. JCPOA Lmfao you have to be faking this. No one could be this dumb.
Seb rank	Tue Jun 09 11:58:52 You just tried your best at taking out the Iran regime and destroying their ability to threaten the region and develop nukes; and failed. It wasn't because Trump botched the tactics. The tactics were just fine. Sure, you could have done a bit more to harden regional bases, but that wouldn't materially change anything. It's just the best campaign the US can launch was not able to achieve the results you wanted; and in revealing that you've taken the ability to hold Iran at risk off the table. They now know you can't achieve regime change, and the cost of your attack in military terms is now a sunk cost, and they know you can't repeat it for years due to depletes stocks, and they know for sure they can very easily close the straits and they know the impact that has. They hold the better cards, you played yours badly. And the results of Trump and the US Right's approach is demonstrably worse than what JCPOA achieved. Trump will not be able to secure anything as good as JCPOA nor achieve anything better by further use of force. You failed. Not because Trump executed your ideas badly. The military executed them - for all purposes that matter - as close to optimal that can be achieved. Trump failed because he implemented your ideas, and they are retarded. That's all.
Allahuakbar rank	Tue Jun 09 13:19:24 The reason why Trump is failing: the Zionists! https://ww...ockade-on-Hormuz-if-talks-fail Commenting on US President Donald Trump’s repeated claims about wanting a deal with Iran, Rezaei stated, “Any agreement is only possible if the rights of the Iranian people are completely respected under international law and the UN Charter.” “Only under such conditions can an agreement be reached,” he said. He expressed deep skepticism about reaching a genuine agreement with the United States, citing Trump’s well-known inconsistency and subservience to the Zionist regime. “Mr. Trump does not demonstrate the necessary courage in negotiations. At times, he comes under the influence of public opinion manufactured by the Zionists. He says one thing to us and then takes it back. He is not fundamentally a man of negotiation; he is simply incapable of negotiating,” Rezaei remarked. The senior Iranian official pointed out that indirect talks continue through mediators, but major obstacles remain, especially regarding the release of Iran’s frozen assets. “Americans must speak clearly. Negotiations cannot succeed with ambiguity and excessive demands,” he warned.
Sam Adams rank	Tue Jun 09 22:14:02 "You just tried your best" Lol seb the military strategist. We got a regular stonewall jackson napoleon right here.
Jesse Malcolm Barack rank	Tue Jun 09 22:34:41 http://www.ynetnews.com/article/yf5djc6u8 Trump on American aircraft incident: 'Not a big deal' oh man trumps so scared he'll lose his peace deal iran can shoot down american aircraft and its not a big deal
Sam Adams rank	Tue Jun 09 22:36:49 Lol trump = seb.
Seb rank	Tue Jun 09 23:04:09 NaMBLA: Ok, what, exactly, did the US fail at tactically that you think it could have succeeded at instead?
Rugian rank	Tue Jun 09 23:09:02 Underdeployment of forces posted to the Gulf for one thing.
Sam Adams rank	Tue Jun 09 23:09:08 Time seb. Lol retard. "When you are kicking ass, stop your attack and talk a lot" -seb, trump. Lmfao.
Sam Adams rank	Tue Jun 09 23:44:17 So it looks like trump is conducting a minor strike for the Apache.
Habebe rank	Tue Jun 09 23:52:58 Could the US get actual regime change? I 100% think so. The problem is we clearly can not do it without ground troops and likley would be a major ongoing forever war. But in all fairness, that was Irans strategy the entire time, make it not worth the hassle.
Seb rank	Wed Jun 10 02:09:07 NaMBLA: But you aren't kicking ass, really, are you. You've spent more in cruise missiles and in air defence missiles than you can reasonably afford given need to maintain deterrence in other theatres which is why you've stopped along with the fact the economic pain of a global energy crisis is too much. And the regime is still there, it can still fire missiles enough to fuck up your regional allies and bases and it can still prevent civilian shipping through the straits and you still haven't prevented them from being able to reconstitute its nuke program. If your argument is you would just keep going until you have no cruise missiles and patriot interceptors left, is there any reason to think you'd get better results? Nah. You'd be just exactly where you are now, but unable to do shit if China invaded Taiwan. That's all.
Seb rank	Wed Jun 10 02:09:43 You can't even deter Iran from shooting down your helicopters.
Seb rank	Wed Jun 10 02:14:00 Rugian: And what difference do you think that would make to the outcome? Do you think the damage to any of the bases Iran attacked could have been prevented? It's not like the US strikes on Iran were poorly executed in scale. The issue is simply that are always going to get some shots off, and some of those will get through. The US strikes were very effective tactically. The issue is that they can't deliver strategic outcome you want no matter how successfully they are carried out. It doesn't matter how amazing your ladder is, it still never let you climb you to the moon.
Sam Adams rank	Wed Jun 10 03:53:16 "But you aren't kicking ass, really, are you." "The US strikes were very effective tactically." Seb 5 minutes apart. Lol IQ check on aisle 6 please.
Seb rank	Wed Jun 10 13:51:07 NaMBLA: The fact you think those two statements are in opposition is proof of how dumb you are. The best engineered car isn't capable of flight. You can drive it everywhere on land perfectly, but you still aren't going to fly anywhere. The reason you have failed in Iran is not because your military is underperforming or is doing war wrong. The reason you are failing in Iran is because the strategy is wrong. This hasn't got a viable military solution. You are trying to drive a car to the moon.
Sam Adams rank	Wed Jun 10 22:31:32 "This hasn't got a viable military solution." Lol seb the military genius. Right up there with wellington and Nelson. "The US strikes were very effective tactically." Then keep doing them. Duh. Lol you retard.
Habebe rank	Wed Jun 10 23:30:49 Sam, We absolutely did alot of damage via said strikes. The problem is we could do such strikes forever and it wouldn't get us regime change IMHO. Like people are acting like Iran is coming out of this unscathed, look up the actual damages on both sides and clearly they got fucked up more than news seems to portray. But, we don't want.to just fuck up Iran, we want regime change.
Habebe rank	Thu Jun 11 00:05:53 If your takeaway from Iran is that the US military couldn't defeat Iran. You would probably think that the EU and the US couldn't defeat Russia in the Ukraine.
obaminated rank	Thu Jun 11 01:04:24 Trump's problem is he decapitated the Iranian regime in 24 hours and now he is trying to negotiate with people who aren't in command of the entire country.
Sam Adams rank	Thu Jun 11 02:32:21 "it wouldn't get us regime change " Maybe. Maybe not. But we don't need regime change. We just need to bomb their missiles and nuke plants.
Habebe rank	Thu Jun 11 03:22:10 My gut says China would just mass produce them for Iran and we would end up with a proxy war of attrition with no end in sight.
Sam Adams rank	Thu Jun 11 04:11:57 That's what the blockade is for. And China isn't gonna give nuclear tech cause then we'll do the same to Taiwan.
Habebe rank	Thu Jun 11 05:32:23 I don't know enough about Iranian/Chinese trade routes to know if a successful vlockade would plausibly cut supplies.
Seb rank	Thu Jun 11 10:07:00 NaMBLA: "Then keep doing them. Duh. Lol you retard." Cool. So keep doing things with great tactical effect that have no strategic impact; run out of munitions and watch as China takes over Taiwan. Despite the tactical success of the strikes, you aren't able to significantly degrade their nuclear industrial capabilities, you aren't able to achieve regime change, nor their ability to launch sufficient missiles to do damage to gulf states, nor engineer regime change. Because strikes simply - no matter that they are conducted flawlessly - simply can't achieve these things. This, basically, is as good as it gets with strikes. The next military rung is land invasion, which will suck for you and as we know from Iraq and Afghanistan, you'll eventually lose but only after 10 years or more of body bags and trillions in debt. So that's that, dummy. That's still failure NaMBLA.
Seb rank	Thu Jun 11 10:19:26 Habebe: Russia being defeated in Ukraine isn't the same proposition as the US being defeated in Iran. Russia is the aggressor in Ukraine, it's on foreign territory, it needs to sustain supply lines, it needs to stay on the offensive, and small drones are bleeding it dry. The US launching a sea borne invasion into a country where a lot of the key objectives are on a mountainous plateau is like what Russia is doing, on stilts; and China will be happy to keep the Iranians fed with stuff to bleed your guys dry. Besides, we all know it will fail because you ultimately failed in Afghanistan that was much smaller than Iran with Pakistans ISI providing external support rather than China. NaMBLA: China doesn't need to give them nuke technology, Pakistan already did. You've been trying to bomb their plants and rockets. It's just not every effective when they are under granite mountains. You aren't got to get better results than you have already, having spent far too much of your missile stocks. It's not like the missiles are missing their targets or not performing as expected. The issue is what you can destroy from the air is too easy to replace; and the rest is too deep and too easily fixed. And that's it. In themselves, the strikes are very successful as strikes. But strikes aren't strategically useful in achieving the objectives and outcome you want.
Sam Adams rank	Thu Jun 11 10:49:01 The most difficult part by far to interdict would be through russia to the Caspian sea. But russia is retarded and has logistics problems of their own. Iran wouldn't be able to pay for anything though cause they can't get oil out
Sam Adams rank	Thu Jun 11 10:56:19 Lol seb the military genius. nuclear industry and icmbs are so cheap and easy to build. That's why everyone has so many of them. Dunce.
Sam Adams rank	Thu Jun 11 11:01:58 Wellington and Nelson and Churchill... And seb. Lmfao.
Seb rank	Thu Jun 11 11:04:36 NaMBLA: They've done the hard part. The marginal cost of new centrifuge units of missiles is small compared to the production and know how; and what you are seeing is that largely they have retained these in hardened underground facilities you aren't able to do much about from the air. Best you can do is damage easily replaced elements of the supply chain they haven't bothered hardened because they can be easily replaced; and launch points which they've also easily brought back on line. We already know that they have missiles that hit Israel and all your regional bases out to Diego Garcia. That's not in doubt. "Iran wouldn't be able to pay for anything though cause they can't get oil out" "Iran wouldn't be able to pay for anything though cause they can't get oil out" EU isn't expecting to recover the military aid it gives Ukraine. China very likely doesn't see supply of munitions to Iran as a simple commercial transaction; rather a geopolitical investment. Dummy.
Sam Adams rank	Thu Jun 11 11:16:08 ”China very likely doesn't see supply of munitions to Iran as a simple commercial transaction” Possible. But given the alternative is seblike appeasement and a guaranteed Iranian nuke... Let's try it and find out. The rest of your post is such childish idiocy it's not even worth responding to.
TheChildren rank	Thu Jun 11 12:12:37 heeel looo dakness ur ol friend https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nyxE-9aSIQ rofl all ur wonder toys is fastly proven 2 be worthless
murder rank	Thu Jun 11 13:52:06 "Iran wouldn't be able to pay for anything though cause they can't get oil out" That's what credit is for. -
Paramount rank	Thu Jun 11 13:56:55 That’s likely Chinese tech that shot down the JASSM missile. Or are the Iranians so good that they can develop this technology by themselves? Iran also reportedly destroyed a bunch of F-35’s in Jordan, a US command center, as well as a Patriot systems. Damn. The US pedo empire got pummeled hard. But this is what happens to a country when it is run by pedo mafiosos and tiny hats. If Nimatzo is still alive, I hope he can feel pride in his former country and people.
Average Ameriacn rank	Thu Jun 11 15:01:23 STONE AGE!!!!!!!!!!! https://tr...Trump/posts/116731447139970106 Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump The United States will be hitting Iran (Whose Navy, Air Force, Radar, Anti Aircraft, and all other forms of Defense, together with most of its offensive capability, are GONE!), VERY HARD TONIGHT. At some point in the not too distant future, we will be taking Kharg Island, and other oil infrastructure points, and assume total control of their Oil and Gas Markets, much like we have with Venezuela, which is working out brilliantly for both Venezuela and the United States of America. Thank you for your attention to this matter! President DONALD J. TRUMP Jun 11, 2026, 2:22 PM
Seb rank	Thu Jun 11 15:04:20 NaMBLA: By all means continue. Demonstrate how badly your dumb ideas have failed. The facts are JCPOA worked in preventing Iran developing a stockpile of weapons grade uranium and limiting enrichment capacity; and created a space to contain Iran. Let's see how Kharg Island turns out.
TheChildren rank	Thu Jun 11 17:53:11 "Or are the Iranians so good that they can develop this technology by themselves?" >> who knos. prolly. or maybe iran developed themselves but china and russia gave them da bluprints and weaknesses and shit. word is da meruca has till july/ august be4 da oil runs out. some of da ammoz and patriots and shit prolly has left than 2 months supply left. they was at 50-60% in april. so cant be long no more... tik tok tik tok. times tickin. we is witnessin history boyz.
TheChildren rank	Thu Jun 11 18:08:04 ya, we is told murca is da biggest oil producer 4 years...so how culd dis be? turns out, we is got lied 2, again! rofl they isnt da biggust oil no where even close.
Habebe rank	Thu Jun 11 18:49:02 Seb, The same dynamic of not trying full force is at play. I also agree that China, being China also sees the value in making it as expensive as possible and dwindling down US munitions.
murder rank	Thu Jun 11 19:42:14 Trump cancels tonight's strikes on account of we're practically out of ammo. I can't believe that countries all over the world haven't decided to kick our ass while this moron is in charge. -
murder rank	Thu Jun 11 19:43:02 Greenland is now thinking about invading the US. -
murder rank	Thu Jun 11 19:44:26 Canada is considering making the US it's 11th province thanks to Governor Trump. -
Seb rank	Thu Jun 11 20:46:30 Habebe: What force do you think isn't getting used? You've expended how much of your strike missiles, exactly?
Seb rank	Thu Jun 11 20:47:10 Murder: Nobody wants the US. Not with its current population.
murder rank	Thu Jun 11 20:54:42 They can strip us for parts. They can force the unwanted population to migrate to West Virginia. -
Sam Adams rank	Thu Jun 11 22:49:18 "The facts are JCPOA worked” IQ check again.
Rugian rank	Thu Jun 11 22:54:09 Sam Isn't it obvious? Iran didn't complete a bomb, therefore JCPOA worked. Sort of like how the US not having the atomic bomb in 1944 was proof that they weren't endevoring to develop one.
Seb rank	Thu Jun 11 23:11:47 Rugian: More the fact that we were able to verify exactly how many centrifuges they had, their uranium stockpiles, and we got them to blend them down. I mean sure, we can keep pretending that they were cheating on the deal - but even your own intelligence reports confirm it. Nobody believes that Iran has a secret enrichment program we didn't know about or secret stocks we didn't know about. Everything they have now, we watched them build *AFTER* you abandoned JCPOA.
Seb rank	Thu Jun 11 23:13:09 It's also kina obvious they didn't, because we saw them rebuilding their old facilities after JCPOA, and if they had super secret ones we didn't know about and they hadn't disclosed - why didn't they just expand those secretly rather than build up the ones they had told us about already?
Seb rank	Thu Jun 11 23:15:46 Anyway Rugian, you do you. Keep meming yourself into insanity with made up facts to provide talking points that justify just reflexively doing the opposite of whatever the Democrats did. It's going really well for you.
jergul rank	Thu Jun 11 23:52:35 The best anti-proliferation move now is for the US to bow out. Effectively demonstrating that conventional deterrents are as effective as nuclear deterrents. Harping on would also prove the point if you want to do it like Ukraine and inflict costs at a high price.
jergul rank	Thu Jun 11 23:53:12 If you want Iran to do it like Ukraine*
Sam Adams rank	Fri Jun 12 00:00:32 "an empty promise and a few bureaucratic words is how you get a murderous fanatical regime to behave" -winston wellington seb Lmfao
Seb rank	Fri Jun 12 00:04:47 NaMBLA there, telling us he doesn't know much about what the JCPOA was, how Iran was pressured into agreeing it, and how Trump just demonstrated that the coercive threats the US made in support of it were empty because the US isn't able to follow through.
Sam Adams rank	Fri Jun 12 01:36:13 "JCPOA was peace for our time" Seb Lol
Habebe rank	Fri Jun 12 03:40:24 Seb, Im all fairness, I said early in the Ukraine war that Ukraine would deplete pur munitions.
jergul rank	Fri Jun 12 04:17:57 Dummy, kinetic coercion has huge limitations. That is what JCPOA is about. Formalize a system that codifies what Iran loses if it ever were to develop and deploy nukes. Peace in our time is a nice soundbyte, but what did it change? Germany would have to wait a year to nab sudetenland without particular fear of anglo-french intervention? So now Trump has to do a virtual JCPOA and trust Iran understands it will lose a lot of benefits if it ever chose to develop and deploy nukes. It will probably amount to about the same thing give or take. All you did was burn off a lot of cash and credibility.
Seb rank	Fri Jun 12 09:16:27 Jergul: It's unlikely that Trump will get JCPOA terms. Part of the JCPOA involved the US setting out that costing the straits would be an existential issue for the Iran regime; and that there US could destroy the Iranian enrichment capability. Now the Iranian regime knows the US cannot achieve regime change and they can close the straits, and knows that there are Iranian sites the US can't hit. Plus the upside is limited too: the US abandoned JCPOA, they may do the same on any lifting of sanctions. What the US can credibly threaten and offer is greatly reduced. If they really want to make sure this never happens to them again, the answer is simple: build a nuclear arsenal.
Seb rank	Fri Jun 12 09:19:00 Habebe: Yes but that was idiotic if you compare what was sent and how much was sent. Mostly it was obsolete munitions approaching or past use by date. You've expended vastly more munitions in a few weeks with Iran than the entire war in Ukraine. And that tells Europe and Asia a lot about US reliability as an ally and military partner.
Seb rank	Fri Jun 12 09:36:54 Habebe: Also the strategic context. Defeating Russia in Ukraine (yes Jergul you don't need to repeat yourself, see disagree) acts to deter China and weaken its position while strengthening the US's globally. The war in Iran was both entirely unnecessary and counterproductive. And even to the extent that the US will reap some gains from Russia burning itself out in Ukraine anyway; the egregious behaviour towards Europe and attempts to force Ukraine to surrender more than offset it. The US looks a nation in decadent decline.
Sam Adams rank	Fri Jun 12 09:41:43 ”Formalize a system that codifies" Lmfao Meaningless buzzword drivel from the talkers.
williamthebastard rank	Fri Jun 12 10:20:52 Man, you cant be using long words like formalize with skinheads
murder rank	Fri Jun 12 11:41:45 Day 105 ... have we captured Tehran yet? -
Seb rank	Fri Jun 12 11:48:13 NaMBLA: As opposed to you, a man of action!
Seb rank	Fri Jun 12 11:53:53 "Peace in our time" also specifically ignores what Chamberlain went in trying to achieve, and did achieve. He wanted another year to get fighter numbers up, and he got it. If he really thought he'd got peace in our time, he wouldn't have been shifting so much into rearmament. Hitler later thought the delay in open conflict with Britain and France cost him the war. He might have been right. NaMBLA, of course, would have lost the war by trying to fight it before we were ready. But he'd have been on the other side anyway which kinda fits in the overreaching.
jergul rank	Fri Jun 12 13:06:41 Seb I did not say that the US would at all. But a lot of the terms were meaningless. Nuclear Iran was never a question of trust and limitations. Either Iran wants nukes or it does not. If it wants them, it will develop and deploy nukes. The US is perfectly capable of normalizing relations to give Iran significant things to lose. That is the only way to enforce the NPT by treaty design. China is not the country that needs to be deterred. Taiwan is. The current situation is completely viable. The only thing that will lead to a Chinese invasion is a Taiwanese version of a Maidan revolution. China will view that as existential in the same way Russia views a neutral Ukraine at worst as existential. Dummy, you are not wrong. Words that give Iran more to lose from developing nukes was always the only way to enforce the NPT. Because that treaty is made that way on purpose. Germany would have lost immediately if Hitler had invaded without a deal. The French were ready to waltz into the Rhine. Hitler would have backed down and waited a year.
jergul rank	Fri Jun 12 13:11:42 Seb Do the same playbook with Taiwan. Tell me Taiwan really has the right to decide itself and should make that absolutely clear to China. It really, really should break away from China, declare itself a singular and independent country and should aspire to Nato membership on principle.
Seb rank	Fri Jun 12 13:54:08 Jergul: This US govt can normalise relations, the next govt can unormalise them. Once the US started treating foreign policy and treaties as disposable positions subordinate to party politics, it lost a lot of ability to conduct high stakes negotiations that rested on US adopting an enduring course of action. Why would you make any concession for normalisation? "China is not the country that needs to be deterred" I disagree. "The French were ready to waltz into the Rhine. Hitler would have backed down and waited a year." You may be mixing up remilitarisation of the Rhineland. That was probably the best point and France was advocating for invading the Rhineland then. But for Anchluss and Sudetenland they were in political turmoil and not willing; and Britain didn't feel ready as German rearmament had proceeded much faster than expected. Jergul: The status quo is substantially different. China pretends Taiwan is a rogue province, Taiwan gets to be functionally independent. Ukraine is formally independent, and Russia wishes to change that. They problem is China wants to try and coerce Taiwan into its system. Russian revanchism was the issue: it had formally accepted Ukraine independence, but wished to undo it. Similarly, the trigger point for a Taiwan crisis is likely to be China's growing attempts to assert more control over the island.
Paramount rank	Fri Jun 12 15:16:28 ” Russian revanchism was the issue: it had formally accepted Ukraine independence” It was on the basis that Ukraine was neutral. That Ukraine was not seeking to join any military alliance (NATO) and that the West/NATO would not allow Ukraine to become a member of NATO. But the West and NATO insisted on that Ukraine can join NATO, knowing very well that it would lead to conflict and war.
Habebe rank	Fri Jun 12 16:03:17 Seb, Both seem like waste to me. Older stocks can generally be maintained/updated to make them useable again, as the US actually did in order to send over weapons that had expired in 2015. From what I could find with a quick search we sent over 600 to Ukraine and 1000 used in Iran, so more, but clearly still a significant amount. (Patriots) Iran IMO has a more clear case for potential upside, if we actually accomplished regime change. The problem is short of regime change, I dont see the benefit of wasting our preparedness. Dumb excursion.
Seb rank	Fri Jun 12 16:05:05 Paramount: Russia's annexation of Crimea and invasion of Donbass was not triggered by NATO, it was triggered by its trade agreement with the EU. At the time, Ukraine has a constitutional bar on joining NATO. There was no condition of neutrality in Russia's recognition of Ukraine anyway; but Russia's 2014 invasion and violation of the Budapest Memorandum which included a guarantee of Ukrainian territorial integrity clearly invalidates any such claim Russia might make. Of course Ukraine should be allowed to pursue a defensive alliance given Russia's history of occupation and then post independence aggression against Ukraine.
Seb rank	Fri Jun 12 17:35:12 Habebe: "Iran IMO has a more clear case for potential upside, if we actually accomplished regime change." Lol. You are nuts. Firstly, regime change was never on the cards. Secondly, defeat Russia in Ukraine and you get a good chance of regime change in Russia, which gives you a much stronger chance of regime change in Iran plus better containment of China. Now you have less stocks of weapons, fucked your alliances with everyone which is starting to have economic consequences, a quagmire in Iran. Bravo.
jergul rank	Fri Jun 12 17:52:49 Seb Read the rise and fall of the third reich along with the collapse of the third republic. Shirer is quite comprehensive. I disagree on your position on both China and Russia. You may want to read up on existential stakes for nation-states. There are just some red lines it is best not to cross. The invasion, occupation and annexation of Ukrainian territory was illegal for fundamental reasons. And of course Ukraine is free to seek defensive alliances it wishes without condition. But we are where we are. Or are you one of those that thinks Israel should return to its 1947 boundaries as dictated by international law that allowed its formation. I think you need to accept that the Maidan coupist revolutionaries made a series of huge mistakes. The elections that returned Ukraine to democracy in october of 2014 sadly were not held in most of the areas Russia has currently annexed. The democracy endgame for those areas are recognized referenda expressing self-determination. Sadly, I doubt they will want to be part of Ukraine.
Habebe rank	Fri Jun 12 19:44:07 Regime change in Russia was never in the cards. And I agree it wasn't in Iran either via what we are/did do. Hence why I said dumb excursion.
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