Utopia Talk / Politics / Gaza: Vae victis

Rugian Member	Tue Oct 17 13:39:23 Link to previous: http://uto...hread=92237&time=1697564544391 Obaminated, no not fluent, but one doesn't need to be to respect the sheer multitude of badass quotes that the Romans had relating to war and destroying one's enemies. Plus the Roman Empire provides a fantastic example of what happens when some Middle East terrorists go too far in attacking civilized peoples (Emperor Hadrian did nothing wrong).
murder Member	Tue Oct 17 13:48:26 I have to respect the commitment to the theme and snagging the OP every time.
jergul large member	Tue Oct 17 14:01:32 Copy-paste. Well, there we have it then. A 6 step plan for Israel. 1. Open humanitarian corridors on the Israeli side of the refuge to Israeli run refugee camps until return to Gaza is possible. 2. Physically re-occupy Gaza. 3. Dehamasfy Gaza without making the mistakes of debaathification. 4. Reestablish as many civic functions as possible under direct Palestinian control on Gaza. Note that former hamas members will hold both key and mundane functions as they have the qualifications. 5. Negotiate a settlement with PA outside of Gaza. Allow Gazans to participate in the referenda. 6. Regardless of outcome, keep Gaza under martial law until the security situation allows for normalization. Easy-peasy. I am making a prediction of sorts. Israel and Hamas (or Hamas' successors in 20 evolutions) can rinse-repeat for 2000 years if they like. The end outcome will eventually be something similar to above. But now would be good. Less warcrimy. Less sins of fathers paid for by sons. ================= Ruggy, there is a certainn status quo for a reason. Israel going genocidal simply assure that Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and Iran will have nukes relatively soon. Not to nuke Israel, but so the long range bitchslapping can take place if the need ever arises. The way out of the impasse is as I suggested. Israel does not have to opt for that now. It can happily wait for 2000 years if it wants to. But then, there will be regular episodes.
earthpig GTFO HOer	Tue Oct 17 14:02:46 Putin's biggest adversary and greatest challenge in Ukraine, from about the 2nd month of the war on, has been the American attention span. That attention span, while focused, results in shit tons of money and military hardware on the ground, in Ukraine, manned by Ukrainian troops. I wonder if our chess player here, by making that call to Iran sometime in Spring 2022 (I'm conjecturing), that nudged the first domino that ultimately led to the brutal Hamas terror attack, wasn't him very potentially ultimately winning his Ukraine war, which the rest of us will come to the 'surprise' realization of, some time a decade from now. Go dance around with one pawn on this side of the board, get the enemy rook and queen engaged, freeing up whatever you've left on the other side of the board to have vastly greater operational freedom of action a few moves from now. We all know Hamas isn't going to conquer Israel, so it has to be a big attention-getting thing that elicits a wildly disproportionate response from America, both in the short term (weapons and cash) and in the medium turn as the lack of American attention causes the flow of weapons and cash to Ukraine to dry up. CNN now barely mentions Ukraine. If I go to CNN and click on "world" news, I have to scroll 2/3 down to see anything on Ukraine. And, what I *do* see, is an article from October 6. That's a fucking total 180, from "can't shut up about it" to "there's nothing worth writing about, let's talk instead about Israel Israel Israel." Disclaimer: I didn't read all the old threads, just the last one and did "ctrl+p putin."
Paramount Member	Tue Oct 17 14:07:38 When Hamas is more rational than any Western government: FROM HAMAS, Press Statement: The hospital massacre in the Gaza Strip is a crime of genocide.. The horrific massacre carried out by the Zionist occupation in the Gaza City’s Al-Ahly Hospital which left hundreds of casualties, most of them displaced families, patients, children and women, is a crime of genocide that once again reveals the ugly face of this criminal enemy and its fascist and terrorist government. This also exposes the American and Western support for this criminal occupation. The international community and the Arab and Islamic countries must assume their responsibilities and intervene immediately, now and not tomorrow... to stop the arrogance of the occupation and its fascist army, and hold it accountable for the genocide it has been committing for the eleventh day in a row in the already blockaded area. Corresponding: October 17, 2023 Official website - Hamas movement http://x.com/dd_geopolitics/status/1714337285637095450
earthpig GTFO HOer	Tue Oct 17 14:08:01 Russia can't send long range bombers to the weapons factories & stockpiles of Ukraine the way you could do in WW2, because those weapons factories & stockpiles of Ukraine are located in places like Germany and the US. And the outputs of those factories/stockpiles aren't guided by strategic thinkers in DC like they might have been in 1942. There's no existential threat present, so instead it's politicians acting like politicians, being responsive to the ever fickle American attention span. From Putin's POV, diverting those factories/stockpiles (both today, and tomorrow) accomplishes the *exact* same thing as bombing all the Raytheon factories, etc. Once the Hamas/Israel thing cools off, it's not like the American attention span is going to refocus on Ukraine with anywhere remotely the same vigor it had from Feb 24, 2022 to Oct 6 2023.
Paramount Member	Tue Oct 17 14:09:52 A struggle between the children of light and the children of darkness. http://x.com/tadhghickey/status/1714304057781768647 Looks like Netanyahu has deleted it.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Oct 17 14:11:20 Hamas seems to be faking an israeli strike "on a hospital that killed 500 people". Even if the fake or massively exaggerated, you know hamas propaganda outfits like al jazeera or the ap wont report the correction
jergul large member	Tue Oct 17 14:19:28 EP Well, you can plausibly shoehorn facts into fitting something like that. Russia did just extend its nuclear umbrella to cover Belarus. Why not then to Iran? In my opinion, the most important thing for Russia is how it frames the conflict. Whataboutism is going to go rampant the next time someone says "oh noes, Russia bombed a funeral reception for a military dude. There may have been civilians there" Crap like that. The attention span had already lagged. Anyone wanting to win GOP primaries has to take a stand against arming Ukraine. Such is the GOP voter opinion. It will get worse now as GOP politicians can say why are we not building wall, helping Americans helping Israel, instead of this silliness in Ukraine. It will however be interesting to see how democrat voter support breaks after this new conflict. That is true.
obaminated Member	Tue Oct 17 14:19:58 Contrary to what EP has said, they was a growing chorus to slow down the funding of Ukraine, many people seeing it as either a lost cause or that Ukraine was as bad as Russia. Being less on the publics radar and still in the mind of lobbied politicians is a great way for the US to continue funding Ukraine without having to explain every war crime from Ukraine away. The real shock will be 3 years from now during the next mid term election cycle when the American public is told how much we have spent on Ukraine and how much we invested in rebuilding it and how much has potentially been stolen via bribes and simple criminality. Still think stopping Russia in Ukraine is cheaper than stopping Russia anywhere else and ultimately better for the big picture. But war crimes and money being lost is a simple fact during wars, turning a blind eye to it from time to time is for the greater good.
obaminated Member	Tue Oct 17 14:22:39 And yeah, I'm sure Israel bombed a building that hamas was using as a hospital. 500 people didn't die and any civilians dead in that strike were used as human shields.
Paramount Member	Tue Oct 17 14:35:25 Israeli embassy in Jordan is on fire http://x.com/lowkey0nline/status/1714360566813200679 Turkish protesters are calling for a march to the Israeli Embassy. Allegations circling that Turkish protesters may storm the embassy. Israel's national security headquarters tells Israelis in Turkey to leave the country immediately. http://x.com/dd_geopolitics/status/1714355433413153214 How many carrier battlegroups does the US have? They will have to send another one to Lebanon and one to Turkey. Israel’s existence is under threat.
Paramount Member	Tue Oct 17 14:40:46 Nazi Israel has started to shoot at Palestinians in the West Bank now: http://x.com/upholdreality/status/1714352436440158433
obaminated Member	Tue Oct 17 14:41:49 *insert rules of engagement scene of Sam Jackson ordering his troops to shoot into the mob*
Seb Member	Tue Oct 17 14:44:12 Earthpig: Equally, by taking Ukraine out of the news, does that make it easier for any administration to keep funding Ukraine precisely because it is no longer front page news? Republican opposition to funding Ukraine is in part based on entirely cynical reactionary opposition to something that is in the headlines.
obaminated Member	Tue Oct 17 14:54:24 Looks like that hospital that bombed was hit by a failed hamas rocket. Video of it allegedly on Twitter. I'm sure hamas will deny deny deny. But frankly a failed rocket fired from a hospital rooftop makes more sense than Israel bombing a hospital at this stage in the war.
murder Member	Tue Oct 17 14:58:03 "That is genocide. Hamas does have an armed wing, but also runs and employs everyone working for local government. Which is pretty much everyone employed in Gaza." The good news is that most of the population of Gaza doesn't work for Hamas ... including most of the children.
Paramount Member	Tue Oct 17 15:03:35 It wasn’t a Hamas rocket. Hamas rockets can barely destroy a car. Besides, there was a spokesperson or similar (Natfali something) close to Netanyahu, who tweeted that Israel attacked the hospital. The tweet was then deleted.
Paramount Member	Tue Oct 17 15:05:50 Seems like more than 1,000 children and women were killed in israel’s attack on the hospital: Horrific video of aftermath of the Israeli bombing of Al Ahli hospital in Gaza. Only open if you can stomach it. The majority of the dead bodies in the video are toddlers. As of now 1100+ dead and an unknown number missing & wounded http://twi...adi/status/1714363300782256563
obaminated Member	Tue Oct 17 15:10:19 Video of hamas rocket misfiring. http://twitter.com/dom_lucre/status/1714350420200493294
earthpig GTFO HOer	Tue Oct 17 15:13:15 @jergul "Well, you can plausibly shoehorn facts into fitting something like that." Sure, absolutely no proof. Putin might not be playing chess, instead he may just be really REALLY lucky that Hamas has his back. "It will get worse now as GOP politicians can say why are we not building wall, helping Americans helping Israel, instead of this silliness in Ukraine." Yup, agreed. My favorite thing, obaminated just almost did it, is when the sweeping attempts by Ukraine to remove corruption, are held up as evidence of corruption in Ukraine. The only thing that ever really stands out to me about post-Soviet corruption is that they aren't all that good at hiding it. Unlike our polished and refined corruption that is invisible in plain sight even as it is vastly larger, and more pervasive, in scale (Pelosi insider trading stocks being an example that even most conservatives will agree with, if only because of the political party of the person I'm pointing the finger at, as if it's unique to her, rofl). But make no mistake. The "Ukraine is corrupt!" gibberish has nothing to do with corruption, and everything to do with the conservative preference for embarrassing things to be properly closeted so we can all maintain decorum. @seb That is a valid point, to be sure. As someone on the inside of America, however, I think it's an easy thing to keep dredging up for quick points. Might even swing some close congressional elections. The racist part of it isn't aired in polite American company, but in private conservative dominated social media spaces, which in the cases of ones I see are mostly veterans, we're seeing the old Nazi tropes of Slavs being unable to do anything but human wave attacks (may as well be Poles on horses with lances...) being brought up repeatedly (any video snip that could be interpreted that way, is interpreted that way), with compare/contrast to sexy NATO tactics that would never do something like that b/c we're too smart, unlike them (NATO tactics, mind you, that have never been tested without absolute air and indirect fire superiority -- easy to think "your side" are a bunch of tactical genius in such contexts). The two sides are "Big Ivan" and "Little Ivan," and no deaths are mourned, they're Slavs after all. From the lurking on UP, it appears racist commentary against Slavs, even from the usual suspects, is somewhat lacking here, to everyone's credit, but I wonder what would be said by my American friends if all the evil lefties and libtards weren't (thought to be) around.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Oct 17 15:54:29 obaminated Member Tue Oct 17 15:10:19 Video of hamas rocket misfiring. http://twitter.com/dom_lucre/status/1714350420200493294 That is not the correct video. However the correct video does indeed show a hamas rocket being intercepted(or failing) just above the hospital, and a medium sized detonation occuring at the hospital about 8 seconds later(presumably the warhead falling to the surface). Muslims everywhere are using this to call for the annihilation of israel. Tomorrow is the day most likely to see a nuke go off(tehran) since the cuban missile crisis
Sam Adams Member	Tue Oct 17 15:54:43 Fun times.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Oct 17 15:59:48 Us government reportadly working on a massive 100b spending bill to cover all security funding to cover ukrsine israel AND the tx-mx border... rumors. That cant be true that would be way too logical and competent from our government.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Oct 17 16:01:14 Don't get me wrong the odds of a nuke going off tomorrow is very low. I'd say 1% chance tehran gets one.
obaminated Member	Tue Oct 17 16:43:50 Sa is correct, this is the video of the failed hamas rocket that blew up that hospital http://www...owing_the_failed_hamas_rocket/
obaminated Member	Tue Oct 17 16:44:37 Geoconfirmed with lots of video. http://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1714390254935851272
jergul large member	Tue Oct 17 17:00:23 Sammy Have you not been following news from Ukraine? Nuclear weapons are unusable because immediate retaliation would occur from one or more nuclear powers.
jergul large member	Tue Oct 17 17:19:10 Sammy According to CNN, Israeli sources are muddying the waters, by offering alternate explanations but adding qualifiers like "Israel would never *intentionally* hit a hospital. Did anyone here think Israel intentionally hit the hospital? I didnt at least. I think it was accidental, but entirely predictable. Israel is bombarding a huge ghetto after all.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Oct 17 17:53:58 "Nuclear weapons are unusable because immediate retaliation would occur from one or more nuclear powers." I think israel can nuke iran without anyone else getting involved. "According to CNN" Lol. According to multiple actual videos, a palestinian rocket disinitigrated overhead about 8 seconds prior.
obaminated Member	Tue Oct 17 19:40:30 So the hospital is still standing. The rocket seemingly hit in the parking lot and it set off fuel. So 500 people dying is very unlikely. It's good that Israel has taken so long to respond to this. Apparently they have drone footage proving this was a shitty hamas rocket going off course. Important to note that the more hamas and it's media allies run with these false stories the less people will believe them at all when Israel actually does start their ground assault.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Oct 17 19:53:22 http://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1714421334946590873?s=20 The enemy is inside the gates. The muslim who is "leader" of scotland is demanding that the UK import palestinians
obaminated Member	Tue Oct 17 19:57:35 Lol, he wants to take in refugees that Egypt and Jordan refuse to take in.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Oct 17 20:27:35 I'm still laughing at how palestine blew up its own hospital.
Dukhat Member	Tue Oct 17 20:41:52 Israel is going to hit innocent people. That's what Hamas wants. Obaminated will believe otherwise no matter what because he's a cucked dumbass living inside the bottom of the barrel. If I was Israeli and had a brain, I would want to free the hostages, punish all those involved in the attacks, and NOT be involved in some potracted fighting inside an urban warzone. Crush Hamas and have something more reasonable fill up the power vacuum.
obaminated Member	Tue Oct 17 20:44:02 "Free the hostages" "Don't kill innocents" "Don't engage in urban warfare" "Crush hamas"
obaminated Member	Tue Oct 17 20:47:12 And what exactly makes you think i am not aware Israel will kill civilians and hamas wants that to happen? I've said since day 1 civilians will die and those hostages are already dead. To think you can accomplish anything you claim to want without engaging in urban warfare just shows your utter lack of understanding of the situation. But this is the same guy who doesn't want Palestinian civilians to be killed while simultaneously claiming to want to "bomb Iran back to the stone age if evidence shows they were involved". Do you see your contradictions? Probably not But I do note that since it was proven Iran was involved and greenlit attack you've stopped claiming to want to see a war with Iran.
Dukhat Member	Tue Oct 17 20:48:32 We could've done all this with the 9/11 attackers and avoided a trillion dollars wasted in Iraq along with more Americans dying there than died on 9/11. At least Iraq turned out decent though and is fairly democratic by ME standards while selling us oil. The best we could have hoped for.
Dukhat Member	Tue Oct 17 20:49:13 The hostages are not already dead. They've been freed before. You're no middle east expert retard. Just shut up and let the adults make the decisions.
obaminated Member	Tue Oct 17 20:52:54 Why are you talking about Iraq, lol?
obaminated Member	Tue Oct 17 20:54:02 In this moment it's best to assume the hostages are either dead or a rescue effort will cause some of their deaths. We have no idea how many of them are even still alive. But we do know hamas has already killed some.
obaminated Member	Tue Oct 17 20:54:46 Cuckhat, when is the last time you were factually right on this topic?
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Oct 18 02:33:17 "jergul large member Tue Oct 17 09:32:58 Nimi Fucking with Palestinians definitely creates more Islamists in the occupied areas (Gaza and the West bank). Most likely other places too. It is very undesirable to create more Islamists. I am happy to see you agree on that." It was wrong the first time you said. I explained. "Islamism" has nothing to do with "fucking with Palestinians". It's just Islam applied to the physical world, which has been done since the 7th century.
jergul large member	Wed Oct 18 02:38:14 Fucking with Palestinians does however create more Islamists. Which you are not really denying by saying some Islamists would exist anyway. You seem to get that Israelis get mad when Israeli children die. Kind of racist of you if you think Palestinians might react with passivity. Surely that is not what you think? ============= Hezbollah has declared today "a day of rage" in response to the ongoing deteriorating humanitarian situation in Gaza. My, I wonder what that means.
jergul large member	Wed Oct 18 02:41:12 Thankfully, Iran is not party to the conflict. Ukraine has established that actors can help out as much as they like without becoming parties to the conflict. That is truly a relief. We would not want the conflict to become bigger, would we?
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Oct 18 02:51:55 Jergul How to deal with conflict, is just one problematic aspect of Islam(ism) applied to the physical world, like the regulation of taking sex slaves. I wish things were as simple as "white people bomb brown people, brown people angry". However, that does not even rise to the level of an over-simplification of how an Islamic state functions. For all practical purpose, you are saying Islam only exists, because Israel is occupying the West Bank. "Islamism" is doing some heavy lifting here, as if it's this completely separate thing. Islamism is just Islam applied to governance and law, but this is what Islam has been from the very start, hence why there will never be a shortage of people who want to do exactly that. Had that been the story of Jesus, you would find this phenomena among Christians as well.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Oct 18 02:58:33 "Fucking with Palestinians does however create more Islamists. Which you are not really denying by saying some Islamists would exist anyway." No. There is no correlation. Maybe you mean fucking with Palestinians, makes they go on Jihad? Yes that is true, but the devil is in the details as to who is actually fucking with whom here. And then the Islamic framework is still infecting the problem, creating an enemy that is impossible to deal with, who will intentionally commit atrocities, sacrifice their own children. It has nothing to do with "Palestinians". That is a narrative sold to western countries, because western countries are not empathetic to divine mandate and holy land narratives, they are however very keen about "human rights".
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Oct 18 03:06:46 "You seem to get that Israelis get mad when Israeli children die. Kind of racist of you if you think Palestinians might react with passivity. Surely that is not what you think?" I have no idea what this even means. But if you need to ask "surely this is not what you think", it's likely something that doesn't need to be asked at all. I am not talking about the doom loop of violence, but how Islam makes it much worse, because Muslims are applying a 7th century moral framework to the conflict, their own governance and society. It make everything worse. You understand this, I think what you don't understand is how widespread the thing you call "Islamism" is and that it is unrelated to Palestine. If all non-muslims died tomorrow, there would still be Islamism i.e the application of Islam to governance and law.
jergul large member	Wed Oct 18 05:19:43 Nimi Of course there is a strong causal effect between Islamist recruitment and fucking with the Palestinians. But we can just agree to disagree on that matter. We agree that Islamists make matters worse. So probably not a good idea to follow policies that strengthen Islamist recruitment is there? And yes, there would still be Islamists regardless. I am just saying there would be less of them. I think perhaps this is a failure of imagination on your part. Imagine someone had killed a child of yours. Assume joining a certain group was the only way for you to retaliate effectively against that someone. Do you seeth in passive angst, or do you join the group offering the chance of payback?
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Oct 18 06:23:35 "Of course there is a strong causal effect between Islamist recruitment and fucking with the Palestinians." The specifics, Jerusalem, Jews at war with Muslims just informs the reaction (jihad and qital). It doesn't create new Islamists, it creates Muslims doing jihad. Not all Islamists wage Jihad, but all that do are Islamists. This is an important distinction, that captures what you are getting wrong broadly with this issue. Islamism is Islam, when applied to governance and law, that includes laws on warfare. "I think perhaps this is a failure of imagination on your part." It doesn't requires imagination, just reading the texts. There is no escaping fundamentalism and literalism, I think you would agree, regardless of ideology, some segment of any society will be like that - Then the qualitative differences in the literal reading and the fundament will matter. "Do you seeth in passive angst, or do you join the group offering the chance of payback?" With the distinction of "Islamist" and going on jihad and waging qital: People become Islamists, because they agree with the idea of Islamic law and governance. It's also a false dichotomoy, because there are other choices. I understand the dynamic you are suggesting, but it is so entangled with the Islamic narrative, of 1400 years ago, it's not easily dissected into discrete elements like this. The reaction of the people is informed by their religion and culture. Like ask the same question in a Buddhist or Jain society. There are christian sects like this also, that would be extreme pacifist. Even in the Islamic societies in question, not everyone is jihadi. It is the confluence of culture and genetics. And for the sake of argument, I would assume the genetic aspect is equally distributed (I actually think it is), let's say 10% of every society will make an autistic reading of their religion/ideology. And we are not going to fix that any time soon, so the content of the ideology matters and is the thing we can work on. The Soviet managed to beat out religion mostly out of a bunch of countries. Important to note that "fucking with" in the specific case, was the mere foundation of Israel and still to this day, the mere existence of Israel is "fucking with". That is the context Israel found itself in. 1400 year old grudge and and the establishment of a non-muslim state on "Muslim lands" at the site of the second most holy site. I'll be fair, yes Jewish religious beliefs contributes, but they have in practice throughout this been far more reasonable and pragmatic. Mostly due to there being a high degree of pluralism in Israeli society that mirrors that of the west, which is completely absent in Islamic countries of the region.
jergul large member	Wed Oct 18 09:01:02 Nimi Are you ok? Creates muslims doing Jihand and all Muslims doing jihad are Islamists. Is the same thing as creates more Islamists. So yah, fucking with Palestinians creates more Islamists. Which is bad m'kay? We will agree to disagree on this. You are way to culturally biased to really have a worthwhile opinion on this. Dogwhistle call for genocide is rather trite frankly. For what else do you have but the final solution to the Arab question?
Sam Adams Member	Wed Oct 18 09:25:25 Lol bidens speach was fucking retarded.
Sam Adams Member	Wed Oct 18 09:31:51 Daylight photos are consistent with a bomb at the hospital that could have killed perhaps 20 people. Sad :(
Sam Adams Member	Wed Oct 18 09:33:45 So the palestinian terrorists lied about the size of the blast and lied about who caused it. The worlds media including most western media believed it Amazing. Journalists are retarded.
Seb Member	Wed Oct 18 09:51:31 Sam: *Hamas* lied about the size of the blast and who caused it. Problem is people keep quoting "Palestinian officials" which in Gaza often means Hamas. The flip side though, major western media outfits would be less inclined to immediately believe these stories if Israel hadn't: 1. Bombed hospitals in the past 2. Spent the last few weeks publicly explaining it intended to set aside the rules of war 3. Issued specific notice of their intent to bomb hospitals. This is actually a real problem for Israel in that off the back of incorrect western media reporting, we've had massive riots across the Muslim world and more threats to expand the conflict. This is self-defeating for Israel in that for the price of bloodthirsty rhetoric they are creating political constraints for their planned operations. What is interesting is the more Netanyahu has 1-2-1 calls with western leaders, the more they immediately start back pedalling on a blank cheque for Israel and stressing the need not to commit war-crimes. I'm guessing the guy is scaring/pissing off western leaders in these calls. t;dr - Bibi through fucking up communications and diplomacy closing the political window on a ground invasion. Or at least a rapid one.
Seb Member	Wed Oct 18 09:52:37 He should take a look at Zelensky. He's probably have a much freer hand if he had paid lip-service about innocent Palestinian civilians and framed the ground war as liberating them from Hamas.
murder Member	Wed Oct 18 10:06:24 Why is everyone worried about the conflict expanding? And if we really are, then maybe we should quit arming all these countries.
Rugian Member	Wed Oct 18 10:09:18 Seb continuing to be an apologist for the Palestinians and victim-blaming Israel. Disgusting behavior, but not at all surprising coming from such an evil man.
murder Member	Wed Oct 18 10:09:45 "He should take a look at Zelensky. He's probably have a much freer hand if he had paid lip-service about innocent Palestinian civilians and framed the ground war as liberating them from Hamas." Yeah ... no. The moment you get dragged into making declarations about not killing civilians, then the minute you kill some you are pressured into ending the operation. The focus needs to remain on the need to wipe out Hamas. Every last member.
Seb Member	Wed Oct 18 10:53:31 Rugian still engaging in intellectual masturbation using the equivalent of tweezers.
Seb Member	Wed Oct 18 10:54:31 Murder: "then the minute you kill some you are pressured into ending the operation" Never stopped us or anyone else. Meanwhile it looks like Israel's operation is getting increasingly deferred.
obaminated Member	Wed Oct 18 11:33:13 So a terrorist organization unintentionally bombs a parking lot near a hospital. Hamas immediately lies and states Israel bombed a hospital and claims 500 people are dead. No real photos or evidence. But the western media decided to take the word of jihadists who just massacred 1.4k civilians. And sebs brilliant take away is "this is Israel's fault for bad communication". Useful idiot - seb.
obaminated Member	Wed Oct 18 14:25:02 Don't know what biden thought he could accomplish by going to Israel. All he proved was how ineffective he is. Couldn't meet ME leaders. Couldn't condemn hamas for their lies about the hospital explosion. Couldn't stand tall for Israel as the Islamic world begins to Marshall armies against them. But the Bible did say this would happen.
Sam Adams Member	Wed Oct 18 15:04:00 major western media outfits would be less inclined to immediately believe these stories if journaliats had a brain Fixed that for you seb. Also there is a wide massive and obvious gulf between "immediatly believe hamas" and "immediatly believe israel. Like they could have shown a shred of scientific rigor and said "we dont yet know, looking into it".
Sam Adams Member	Wed Oct 18 15:07:59 "Meanwhile it looks like Israel's operation is getting increasingly deferred." It looks like its starting tonight or one of the next few nights. Gotta wait for biden to leave. Its impossible for israel to not invade at this point. Political suicide. Its possible they will wait as long as the time it takes our second carrier to arrive... 5 more days.
Dukhat Member	Wed Oct 18 15:54:08 For people who supposedly don't follow the MSM, you sure spend a lot of time whining about it. All I heard was that a hospital was bombed. But I'm sure you can find whatever dumb anecdotes you want to confirm what you wanted to believe in the first place.
obaminated Member	Wed Oct 18 16:41:50 "You guys know more than me and can probably prove it".
obaminated Member	Wed Oct 18 16:43:56 Cuckhat has contradicted himself so much within his same posts over the past few days that I wouldn't be surprised if he is just posting a string of consciousness with bothering to critique it. I misspell words a lot, but at least my posts are structured to have a beginning, middle and end.
murder Member	Wed Oct 18 17:26:56 "Never stopped us or anyone else." Seriously? I guess you figure the Taliban just had the military strength to survive a 2 decades long war with the US. We handcuffed ourselves to the point that a band of backward asses riding around in Toyota pickup trucks and armed with AK47s and RPGs were able to not only survive a 2 decades long war, but survive it with enough strength to retake the place like they'd just gone on holiday for the weekend.
murder Member	Wed Oct 18 17:28:26 "All I heard was that a hospital was bombed." Really? Because every single early report I heard said that it was an Israeli airstrike.
murder Member	Wed Oct 18 17:29:47 "Meanwhile it looks like Israel's operation is getting increasingly deferred." Well good thing for Hamas, huh?
Dukhat Member	Wed Oct 18 20:51:00 http://www...bing-dueling-claims/index.html Cnn discusses it. Makes me happy the sources I used didn’t attribute responsibility blindly.
obaminated Member	Wed Oct 18 21:09:02 Lol. It was established 24 hours ago it was a rocket from the Islamic front. The idf provides plenty of footage. Cuckhat is glad CNN is still pretending it's an issue up for debate.
Seb Member	Thu Oct 19 03:51:22 Obaminated: Blame is an interesting word to use. I say interesting with the raised eyebrow and faintly amused intonation of someone gently chiding a fool. Do you think the Western media are allied with Hamas? How do you account for the rapidity in which they reached obviously incorrect conclusions? Are any of those factors in Israel's control? Would it be net beneficial to Israel to exercise those control factors? Yes, the world operates with cause and effect and it and people in it react to the choices we make which can have further effects. If this makes me a "useful idiot", then I guess your inability to intuit (as even very tiny infants learn to do before their first birthday) the idea that things in the world happen irrespective of the normative value we ascribe to them makes you a useless idiot. One that is unable to accomplish much because he literally doesn't understand the basic structure of causality.
Seb Member	Thu Oct 19 03:52:21 Sam: Journalists going to do journalism.
Seb Member	Thu Oct 19 03:53:21 What's hilarious is how much you base your arguments and world view on credulous repetition of journalism,Sam, while also believing the writers idiots.
Seb Member	Thu Oct 19 04:07:13 Murder: They did what I said they would do when Sam was crowing about how the country was conquered in days. They fucked off to the mountains, engaged in guerilla war and wore you down. As for hamas, well yes. And that's my point really. Self defeating behaviour to adopt the blood and fury rhetoric.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Oct 19 04:56:58 "jergul large member Wed Oct 18 09:01:02 Nimi Are you ok? Creates muslims doing Jihand and all Muslims doing jihad are Islamists." I can see you are confused. Muslim/Islamist are for the purpose the same thing. As I said, you are essentially saying fucking with Palestinians, as in the mere *existence* of a Jewish state, is creating more muslims. This is false. The fact that there is a Islamic grievance narrative (a Jewish colonial state) is simply compelling them to wage war. Then you have to use your own moral software and figure out if the threshold "fucking with" = the existence of a Jewish state in the Levant, is enough for you, personally. It seems to be, or you are simply uneducated about why Muslims are pissed off about Palestine-Israel. Which I am trying to fix. You can compare this conflict with Morocco-west saharan. A war that has gone on for about as long, and has taken about as many west saharan (nominally arab) lives as Palestinians, with equally ambiguous legal questions around sovereignty and such, it's almost the perfect control group. Then look around and see how many Muslims are pissed off about that. Or Western socialists for that matter. *crickets* It's because they are Jews and because anti-semitism is very strong in the Islamic narrative, many times stronger, through repetition and detail in the texts, than Christianity. This conflict isn't complicated, once you understand it involves muslims humiliated through repeated defeats by Jews. Kheybar kheybar ya Yahoud!
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Oct 19 05:14:21 Jergul "You are way to culturally biased to really have a worthwhile opinion on this" lol :) You mean I actually understand and can explain things. This is why you use thought terminating cowardly cliches "agree to disagree" (actually a text book example phrase of one), and constantly re-state your position in response to the facts and arguments I lay out, instead of actual arguments. If only we all used reductive, parochial arguments from analogy, like you, the world would be such a simple place! You are precisely that generation who fell for the Soviet laundry of the conflict, where Palestinians were invented as a people, to turn this from Israel (the underdog) vs 400 million arabs, to tiny "Palestine" throwing rocks at Israel tanks.
jergul large member	Thu Oct 19 05:20:17 Nimi You definitely do not understand things because you have been blinded and indoctrinated your entire life to hatred. I am singularly unimpressed by your dogwhistle calls for genocide, so I am just going to discount that and pretend you are calling for something else. Namely Israel's physical reoccupation of Gaza that shall be ruled under martial law until Islamist deprogramming in the general population has improved the security situation to a point where Gaza can join a fully sovereign palestine under full and normalized conditions. That will take a while, but Israel's duties and obligations as an occupying power are pretty clear. Arguing that Israel cannot do this is an argument against the viability of Israel at all.
jergul large member	Thu Oct 19 05:25:38 The conscequence of Israel not stepping up and honouring its duties as an occupier will inevitably lead to regional nuclearization. I keep on forgetting Egypt. So Egypt, Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Iran. In no particular order. It might take a couple hundred years to play out, but eventually, this means the end of Israel. Holocaust does mean sacrificial fire. Is there a better word to describe nuclear anniliation?
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Oct 19 05:33:35 I tried to take the things you said seriously, in good faith and explain them, politely. The result was the same. So, don't mind if I just jump to the conclusion next time and just call you an idiot. Jergulism in practice 1. repeating his assertion 2. Use of thought terminating cliche: let's agree to disagree 3. Ad homs: you are biased, waaaa genocide! Then you call him a retard. 4. What's up with the ad homs fren :,(
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Oct 19 05:41:48 "so I am just going to discount that and pretend you are calling for something else." Yea, I think, everyone saw how badly you handled this one. Makes sense that you would take action to preserve your own image of yourself.
murder Member	Thu Oct 19 06:21:16 "They fucked off to the mountains, engaged in guerilla war and wore you down." I can only assume that bombs don't work on mountains. Maybe we ran out of ammunition. Or maybe the Taliban survived because we refused to kill anyone.
jergul large member	Thu Oct 19 06:29:24 Nimi What adhoms? You do not hate Islamists and have not hated them from a far earlier age than is actually healthy to hate?? Dogwhistle calls for genocide fool only those that want to be fooled. All I did was a civilized reframing of your final solution to the muslim question as it pertains to gaza. For surely you mean the population needs to be deprogrammed, and not genocided?
jergul large member	Thu Oct 19 06:52:12 The problem with this discusssion is that you all know at some level that I am correct. If genocide is taken off the table, then the only way forward is for Israel to physically reoccupy Gaza until that territory is ready to peacefully transition into becoming part of a fully sovereign Palestine. We all suspect Israel is unwilling to step up to its responsibilities as an occupier, so that leaves either genocide, or a counteproductive period of punitive strikes (that will likely include ground incursions). At it does is harm and radicalize civilians because we know with certainty that whatever arises from Hamas will simply have learned a greater degree of sophistication and will garner way more goodwill from Egyption customs folk that might otherwise interfer with rearmament projects. That kind of matters. If Israel thinks rockets are bad, then it will have drone swarms to look forward to in the future.
Rugian Member	Thu Oct 19 07:11:19 "until that territory is ready to peacefully transition into becoming part of a fully sovereign Palestine." And therein lies your problem, which is that at some level you know that *we're* correct in that neither the Gazans nor West Bankers will ever be abld to get to that point. Using your analysis, that means the occupation of Gaza would be eternal in nature. And if that's the case, telling the Gazans to just fuck off to somewhere else becomes a much more attractive alternative.
Rugian Member	Thu Oct 19 07:16:55 Seb repeatedly dodged this question, but maybe you're more willing to step up: Since you do favor a 2S solution, what is your estimate of the number of centuries it would take to turn Palestine into a Jew-tolerating seculad liberal democracy that would be a reliable partner for regional peace? Because until that happens, Palestinian sovereignty of any sort is off the table.
jergul large member	Thu Oct 19 07:19:03 Ruggy That is sort of an Islamist line. Israel to fuck off to somewhere else. Is that a more attractive alternative seeing as things should pass repriocity tests? A new Nakba would see the almost immediate rise of 4 muslim nulcear powers joining Pakistan. Exchanging a nuisance for multiple existential threats over the longer term seems like sort of a bad idea. Dont get me wrong, I dont think any nuclear power would have the intention of a nuclear war with Israel. But over say 200 years, a small probability does multiply to almost certainty. Reoccupation of Gaza is the best option, though rebuilding trust will take generations.
jergul large member	Thu Oct 19 07:22:25 Ruggy A viable 2-state solution? West bankers would go for it today. Gaza would have to be under martial law for a few decades. Israeli internal politics are the barrier to that. It cant eat its cake and have it too. A 1-state solution is also an option. The whole idea of an ethnic state is a multi ethnic area was a bit naive to be frank. I am unsure if it is viable long term. Time will tell.
jergul large member	Thu Oct 19 07:23:59 I slipped in the word viable. That is something like 67 borders with full sovereign rights. You can see who is stopping that variant, right?
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Oct 19 07:29:29 Jergul ¨"What adhoms?" Already answered, but it has been noted in the past that you don't actually understand "ad hom", you think insulting you at the back end of having addressed your assertions and arguments is an "ad hom". It's not. Calling me biased, void of any arguments to address what I am saying, is the definition of ad hom fallacy. "for Israel to physically reoccupy Gaza until that territory is ready to peacefully transition into becoming part of a fully sovereign Palestine" You must be living in an alternate reality where Gaza was not occupied by Israel until 2005. Leaving Gaza and allowing elections and self-administration was an experiment, a dress rehearsal, the results are 1300 massacred Israeli civilians. I think what "we" (yourself included) understand is that you're retard. You have since the start suggested the same things be done that led here. Obsessively repeated "genocide is off the table" like some chant to hold back your own demons and an equally thought terminating cliche as, "agree to disagree", in a feeble attempt to avoid the unraveling of your hollow and poorly thought out position.
jergul large member	Thu Oct 19 07:36:13 Nim Yawn. We will just have to agree to disagree on your characterization.
jergul large member	Thu Oct 19 07:42:23 Ruggy Incidentally, I realize there are costs to any transition to normalcy. Israelis would be killed. Palestinians too. But, as we have seen, deaths are unavoidable. But perhaps deaths have more meaning on a path to viable peace?
Rugian Member	Thu Oct 19 08:03:22 Jergul If we're talking reciprocity, then the Islamic World should be ceding about 48% of its landmass to the Jews to achieve territorial parity. http://www.../comments/pa3j5t/muslim_world/ Suffice to say, Israeli land is more precious to the Jews than Gaza is to the Muslims. A nuclear deterrent is only necessary if a country feels threatened. Getting rid of the Gazans ends a conflict, it doesn't create a new one. Why should "generations" of Jews be forced to live with the possibility that their babies will be slaughtered by Gazan paragliders in the vain hope that Palestine may one day make itself worthy of statehood? West Bankers will never accept a 2S solution that includes continuing Israeli security arrangements and settlements. We've already seen this movie played before. As for 1S, that is pure fantasy. You are more likely to see Romulans invade the Federation in your lifetime.
Rugian Member	Thu Oct 19 08:07:13 "You can see who is stopping that variant, right?" The Palestinians were given the chance to have a West Bank that would be divided into 2 or 3 territories. Not ideal, but the whole point of negotiations is that you need to be able to accept making concessions. Especially so when you're the losing party. They shat all over that opportunity when they spit on Camp David and launched the Second Intifada. Which they then proceeded to lose. Think of the additional Israeli settlements that now exist as spoils of war. To use a WWII metaphor, you can't lose an invasion of the Soviet Union and still expect to keep Konigsberg. The settlements are here to stay and it's the Palestinians fault.
Rugian Member	Thu Oct 19 08:09:21 "But, as we have seen, deaths are unavoidable. But perhaps deaths have more meaning on a path to viable peace?" But you're not talking about a path, you only have an aspirational hope that the Gazans will learn to moderate themselves after generations of Israeli occupation. What is the actual path to that, really?
jergul large member	Thu Oct 19 08:23:25 Ruggy Important to use the correct terminology. Israelis and Palestinians. Getting rid of to where? Refugee camps in Egypt? How is that different from Gaza beyond having great limitations on IDF force projection? Radical Palestinians can as happily lob rockets and drones into Israel and stage incursions into Israel from there. Israelis have the choice of living for "generations" or living forever under the threat of losing loved ones. Gaza under physical occupation does mean under physical occupation. The main threat will be to the IDF doing the occupation and the sum of threats far smaller. West bankers will indeed not accept bantustani status. Occupation and resistance will continue until a viable two state solution with a fully sovereign Palestine emerges. Sadly, that status quo involves both warcrimes and terrorism. A 1 state solution is viable. Perhaps more so than one with base law (Israel does not have a constitution) indicating it is supposedly based on zionist principles. A viable 1 state or a viable 2 state solution are the endgame choices. The status quo can continue for 2000 years if that is how Israel wants to play it, but then you will have a repeat of incidents every now and then. But more importantly, current hostilities are not only meaningless, they are counter productive. Something stronger and more sophisticated will emerge from the ashes of whatever Israel does over the coming weeks.
jergul large member	Thu Oct 19 08:30:47 All I am really saying for the first step is that Israel has to honour its obligations as an occupying power. It has to provide security and opportunity to all Palestinians under physical (West Bank) and nominal (Gaza) occupation. It is not cheap and some IDF members will die. But on the flip side, civilian Israelis will be more secure.
Rugian Member	Thu Oct 19 08:31:07 To be continued
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