Utopia Talk / Politics / Uratur evasteturque in vicem Gaza

Rugian Member	Thu Oct 19 08:31:12 Let Israel, which has so long been harassed, at length enjoy some repose; let Gaza, in her turn, be fired and devastated. Link to previous: http://uto...hread=92249&time=1697714964322
jergul large member	Thu Oct 19 08:37:03 Ruggy You are drawing an odd distinction. A lot of Israel is occupied territory just as Gaza is. The only difference is that the occupier allows hamas free reign with the population in one area, but not others. Israel has a duty to protect Palestinians from Hamas even if that organization has some degree of popular support. Israel has failed in that duty ongoing since 2006.
Rugian Member	Thu Oct 19 08:38:33 Jergul Refugee camps, unlike the Palestinian territories, are gateways to a more stable future. Tell the grandchildren of today's refugees to commit terrorism in the name of a land that they have no connection to. It won't happen. Jordan has a huge Palestinian population already. How many times has Israel felt the need to attack it? Israel can have this problem for generations or forever. It can also get rid of the problem immediately with a certain third option. Hmm, what's more attractive. Palestinians will need to accept that the West Bank will be subdivided by Israeli settlements. That's the price they pay for losing every conflict they've fought against Israel since 1948. If they can't accept it, the status quo continues and new settlements will continue to further encroach on Samaria. You are high if you think 1S is viable. Would *you* ever accept having a neighbor who would happily jump over your fence to murder your children? "Something stronger and more sophisticated will emerge from the ashes of whatever Israel does over the coming weeks." If they half-ass things and leave the door open for something stronger to emerge, then sure. That's why if you commit to something, you need to commit all the way (see Option 3 previously mentioned).
jergul large member	Thu Oct 19 08:46:02 The initial post sort of does undermine the logic behind any terrorial gain or even the creation of Israel itself. If Israel can burn Gaza, then why not burn other occupied areas? Back to the 47 boundary, or why not burn the Ben-Gurion airport after the last flights to Europe and America? Israel is an occupying power and has duties and obligations it has to honour to avoid contradictions with its existence. Shit like this matters. Shrirking from the duties of a nation-state undermines the reason for that nation-state's existence. And we would not want that now, would we? Israel should man up and step up. Its duty is clearly to physically reoccupy Gaza.
jergul large member	Thu Oct 19 08:48:35 The third option will lead to 4 more muslim nuclear powers. A rogue Israel capable of expelling millions dictate nuclear weapon protection.
Sam Adams Member	Thu Oct 19 09:42:05 Lol seb stop being butthurt that you immediatly trusted journalists, and thus are wrong about so many things. Its OK to trust some journalists, but only after comparing multiple sources and examining evidence closely... just like any poor quality sensor. But that is a level of scientific rigor beyond you, it seems.
Sam Adams Member	Thu Oct 19 09:44:54 And then theres jergul who things the rules of war applies to hamas. Lulz.
Seb Member	Thu Oct 19 09:46:44 Murder: The issue is finding a target in a very large, mostly unpopulated environment in which hiding is very easy. You weren't exactly skimping on the bombing. The problem is you couldn't find them to bomb them. Then you started fucking off the organised crime and pashtuns that got money and guns from Pakistan with ancillary aims like getting rid of poppy production etc. Anyway, you don't really get rid of these people by bombing the place flat, all you do is create the conditions in which they thrive. The Taliban basically destroyed the Afghan economy and infrastructure down to a level where a normal govt couldn't operate and which that they could control. Ditto Hamas. They benefit from destruction. That's precisely why they just provoked another round of bombing. And trying to kill them all doesn't really work because you leave the environmental niche into which identically shaped organisation will prosper.
jergul large member	Thu Oct 19 09:55:10 Sammy The rules of war apply to Israel and Israel is obliged to follow those rules.
murder Member	Thu Oct 19 10:39:55 "The issue is finding a target in a very large, mostly unpopulated environment in which hiding is very easy." Yeah, people roaming out in the middle of nowhere would be tough to detect. They certainly wouldn't stick out like a sore thumb. "They benefit from destruction. That's precisely why they just provoked another round of bombing. And trying to kill them all doesn't really work because you leave the environmental niche into which identically shaped organisation will prosper." Kill them all too.
jergul large member	Thu Oct 19 10:48:20 Seems rather excessive for an extradition issue. Remember if you will that Afghanistan was because Taliban was slow at handing over OBL.
Sam Adams Member	Thu Oct 19 11:03:45 Sebs and other weenies hobble the response of the civilized world, and then wonder why deterrence isnt working.
Sam Adams Member	Thu Oct 19 11:04:16 "The rules of war apply to Israel and Israel is obliged to follow those rules." Wrong. At least not against hamas.
jergul large member	Thu Oct 19 11:05:51 Sammy Does Israel want to become Hamas? I thought not.
jergul large member	Thu Oct 19 11:14:53 I struggle to see what the point would be to not follow the rules of war against hamas either. What is Israel supposed to do? Execute captured Hamas fighters? What would the point of that be? Even if we disregard the harm that would cause Israel's standing.
obaminated Member	Thu Oct 19 11:35:13 Seb - you listen to media outlets who will take the word over a terror network as truth without any investigating or questioning. Those same media outlets will question everything Israel does and then speculate on how brutal Israel will be. This is a big reason on why you fail to understand what's happening or what the actual Israeli response will be. Jergul - no one is saying captured members of hamas need to be executed, unless it's proven they are connected to the mass attack that killed 1.4k civilians. But you are doing what you always do. Feign neutrality while clearly siding with one party over another. Israel does not need to follow the rules of war against hamas. Hamas does not follow the rules themselves. In a perfect world you would understand this. But it isn't perfect and you will back hamas and other Islamic factions over the jew no matter what happens. Which enables hamas to take human shields because they can rely on you, the useful partisan observer, to denounce Israel when civilians are killed by the idf because hamas as deliberately imprisoned them in spots the idf has to go to in order to defeat and kill hamas. Also. You were wrong on this topic since day one. Have you admitted that yet? I know your ego will prevent you from simply saying "I was wrong." You'll make up excuses and claim you didn't predict irrational people would override rational or something to that effect. Please remember. That is your autism and your inability to understand human beings that caused you to be wrong on day one.
Paramount Member	Thu Oct 19 11:43:16 Obuminated, ”Wed Oct 18 21:09:02 Lol. It was established 24 hours ago it was a rocket from the Islamic front. The idf provides plenty of footage.” It hasn’t been established. Israel’s claims has been debunked. An Al Jazeera digital investigation found no grounds for the Israeli army's claim that the strike on the al-Ahli Arab hospital in Gaza was caused by a failed rocket launch. http://x.com/ajenglish/status/1714984258358391057 This investigation pretty much establish that it was Nazi Israel who bombed the hospital. Everything also points to it: 1. It is Israel who is bombing everything in Gaza 2. They said that they would bomb the hospital 3. They told everyone to evacuate 4. They bombed the hospital
Paramount Member	Thu Oct 19 11:46:06 Nazi Israel is now also murdering children on the West Bank http://x.com/jacksonhinklle/status/1715023859974390240
Paramount Member	Thu Oct 19 11:56:13 Nazi Israel murders babies. http://x.com/kthalps/status/1714815666220392656
jergul large member	Thu Oct 19 11:56:24 Obam We are still firmly within 4 digits on Palestinian deaths. Not sure why you think advocating reoccupation of Gaza is biased torwards Hamas. You should understand that reoccupation is the only way to erradicate hamas in Gaza, though lesser measures might encourage rebranding. Could it be that your autism is flaring up. I do not hold the position you seem to expect. Adapt please. If you possibly can. I know it is hard, but do try.
obaminated Member	Thu Oct 19 12:01:49 Haha watched paramounts al jizzera video. I wonder how much flack they got for Israel being able to point to their own live feed as coorborative evidence of who bombed what. I guess enough to get them to make a 4 minute video that amounts to a lot of disinformation to muddy the waters. Doesn't work on people seeking the truth. More than enough for people who just need something to point to to continue the lie hamas created in the first place. Also. They are still claiming hundreds died in that explosion. Very doubtful.
Paramount Member	Thu Oct 19 12:29:47 How much more evidence do you need? http://x.c...?s=61&t=C7YI8upxCqhyhPMRv9y0zg A palestinian rocket can not do this.
Paramount Member	Thu Oct 19 12:30:05 Palestine does not have these missiles. I wish they had them, but they don’t. http://x.c...?s=61&t=C7YI8upxCqhyhPMRv9y0zg
Paramount Member	Thu Oct 19 12:31:04 If they sound like an Israeli missile, explodes like an Israeli missile, then it is an Israeli missile.
Paramount Member	Thu Oct 19 12:37:49 Rocket from Gaza hits hospital in Istael. “The child development center at the Barzilai hospital in Ashkelon suffered a direct hit by a projectile from Gaza,” she said in a statement. http://eng...n-Ashkelon-in-southern-Israel- ^ That is how a direct hit from one of Palestine’s rockets looks like. Some broken windows.
obaminated Member	Thu Oct 19 12:38:59 It wasn't a midair explosion lol. Those cars are burnt to a crisp because the shit rockets hamas uses started a fire that ignited gas in other cars and spread. Israel genuinely uses missiles and bombs that detonate and kick up lots of dirt. This is why you (generally) don't see massive fires in places confirmed idf bombs went off. Again, you don't care about the truth. And that's fine. You proved that when you saw a dead woman and declared her a zionist nazi when she was a German woman attending a music festival that hamas kidnapped, raped and executed. And then you still didn't care enough to back down. As I've said before, your value is noted.
Paramount Member	Thu Oct 19 13:06:19 Jews celebrating genocide http://x.com/ricwe123/status/1715059689208115266
Sam Adams Member	Thu Oct 19 13:24:40 "What is Israel supposed to do? Execute captured Hamas fighters? What would the point of that be?" Yes, because they deserve it. Like we executed a bunch of germans and japanese that we captured, because their low honor conduct of the war deserved it. Keep in mind that even the japanese fought with more honor than hamas, and the bulk of the german military fought with much much more honor.
Paramount Member	Thu Oct 19 13:31:20 ” the bulk of the german military fought with much much more honor” They also killed much much more jews. That’s honorable.
Sam Adams Member	Thu Oct 19 13:39:37 Mountme is butthurt that israel is winning, again.
Paramount Member	Thu Oct 19 13:44:05 Last time Israel fought Hamas, they lost so many soldiers that they withdrew. Last time Israel fought Hezbollah, they lost. Israel is best at waging war on babies, children, women and elderly using fighter jets and missiles.
Paramount Member	Thu Oct 19 13:45:22 No one beats them at that.
Seb Member	Thu Oct 19 14:00:26 Murder: "Yeah, people roaming out in the middle of nowhere would be tough to detect. They certainly wouldn't stick out like a sore thumb." Why would they be roaming around? Spotting people in rugged terrain that don't want to be spotted is hard. "Kill them all too." Not really working out for Israel is it. Obaminated: "you listen to media outlets who will take the word over a terror network as truth without any investigating or questioning." You are illiterate. That is the problem. They don't take the word of terror networks. They report what people have claimed (both Israel and Hamas), and stated they haven't independently verified them. What you *want* is for the media to report what Israel claims as fact, and not report on what claims anyone else makes. That is called propoganda. If you want to get your information exclusively from the press releases of the IDF, so be it. But trying to claim that the media is "accepting terrorists claims as fact" simply by reporting on them, that is juvenile. "This is a big reason on why you fail to understand what's happening" What do you think I have failed to understand? "what the actual Israeli response will be." What part of the Israeli response do you think I've called wrong?
obaminated Member	Thu Oct 19 14:00:34 Is jergul flagrantly gaslighting a common thing? He is now claiming he always said the deaths of pals would be around 10k. When the day of the attack he was claiming Israeli Intel would fill embarrassed and send missiles into gaza to distract the media.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Oct 19 14:01:14 Paramount When are you going to Gaza for martyrdom operation? I can arrange the travel.
obaminated Member	Thu Oct 19 14:04:28 It took you a fucking long time to accept that Israel was going to wipe hamas the face of the earth. Who do you think is more reputable source? Israel or Hamas? I know you won't. Like jergul you realize how foolish your position is so you'll be forced to give a meandering answer.
Seb Member	Thu Oct 19 14:05:41 Paramount: Israel clearly did not bomb the hospital. For a start there is footage of the hospital there this morning, with all of its windows intact undermining the central premise that the hospital has been bombed at all. Something went bang in the carpark outside some 10-20 meters from the hospital. Something relatively small, and more consistent with something about the size of warhead in Palestinian missiles. It clearly is much smaller than the smallest bombs that Israel uses. That doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't some other Israeli munition - however the central premise that this was an attack on the hospital is, in the cold light of day, BS. It is also highly unlikely hundreds are dead. I would guestimate on the order 50, and even that is quite a high figure for something consistent with the apparent size of the munition; largely due to it landing on a bunch of people sleeping in the courtyard.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Oct 19 14:06:15 Obaminated "He is now claiming he always said the deaths of pals would be around 10k." And when you show him the quote, he will just repeat his updated version over and over - I have always supported war with eastasia!
Seb Member	Thu Oct 19 14:20:21 Obaminated: Like I said, you are illiterate. The first thing I said on this subject: http://www...hread=92215&time=1696696440640 "I think Israel should take a long hard look at attempts to use high tech Western military armies to suppress nationalist insurgencies. ... Yes, there will be bloody reprisals. But there have been bloody reprisals before." The whole post pre-supposes the blindingly obvious. Israel is going to try for a military solution - which means going in on the ground - but I think it will not work out for them. As I said in one of the subsequent threads, urban warfare is always challenging but throw in drones and it can be a death trap. Hamas wants to fight Israel on the street of Gaza. That is their strategy - so that should give some pause for thought. "Who do you think is more reputable source?" Israel. Though Israel has lied to the media in the past and won't hesitate to do so as part of it's public relations efforts. But the job of the media isn't to pick sides. It should report the claims. And it is precisely because Israel is a more credible source that when Israel has said it will bomb hospitals, and when Israel has said it has issued an evacuation order for hospitals, that it lends credibility to a claim that Israel has bombed a hospital and there is footage of what appears to be an explosion at said Hospital. If it was just a Hamas claim on its own, it might be judged far less credible. Also, really obvious now that newsrooms need OSINT expertise. It was very obvious that it was highly likely this was not an Israeli bomb pretty quickly after the first reports, and that the hospital was not destroyed relatively soon after that. That said, I do not want news outfits simply reporting Israel press releases as objective truth.
obaminated Member	Thu Oct 19 14:21:46 This is a war between good and evil. I'm glad that those who have decided to stand up for evil are being accounted for and dealt with. From DHS members, to veteran affairs members, to Harvard students, to ceos and even pretty little fascists. http://www...nova-gaza-israel-citibank.html
Paramount Member	Thu Oct 19 14:27:46 Israel is waging a war on children. Netanyahu said so himself. It’s a war on the children of darkness.
Paramount Member	Thu Oct 19 14:30:07 ”When are you going to Gaza for martyrdom operation? I can arrange the travel.” When Israel nukes Iran and flattens it, I’m going to cheer on Israel, as you will.
Paramount Member	Thu Oct 19 14:33:43 Israel probably should nuke Iran and kill everyone there. They support Hamas and Hezbollah and their attacks on Israel, after all. Iran will have to pay the price for this.
Paramount Member	Thu Oct 19 14:46:23 According to the US, two to three missiles targeted the American warship USS Carney off the coast of Yemen. The US claims the missiles were fired by the Ansarallah resistance movement in Yemen, and that the missiles were intercepted. This is the fourth attack on the US in the region today, following drone and rocket attacks on US forces in Iraq and Syria. http://x.com/dd_geopolitics/status/1715082310931100039 So now Iran is attacking the US through one of their proxies. The US should flatten Iran now and kill all of them.
Paramount Member	Thu Oct 19 14:48:49 But first Sweden needs to send Nimatzo and his family back to Iran. They came to Sweden illegally after all, using forged documents.
Sam Adams Member	Thu Oct 19 15:03:07 "Kill them all too." Not really working out for Israel is it. " Hasnt been tried. Sebs and other weenies are always holding israel back.
Seb Member	Thu Oct 19 15:21:16 Sam: Yes. Israel has been held back from doing whatever the fuck it wants to do by all sorts of western sanctions.
Sam Adams Member	Thu Oct 19 15:37:01 Israel can't kill 3 terrorists before some seb gets on bbc and starts crying about the poor palestinians.
Seb Member	Thu Oct 19 15:42:12 Sam: I'm fine killing terrorists. But there is no such thing as a 6 year old terrorist. And like I said, you need to be living on another planet if you think Israel gives the slightest fuck about whatever any other country complains about. It has never moderated its methods. The simple fact is they clearly don't work as an effective strategy.
obaminated Member	Thu Oct 19 15:51:22 Re - seb : again, your original post heavily implies you believed after some bombings or perhaps an incursion the status quo would be returned. Everyone except you, jergul and Paramount all came to the conclusion that after the massive attack by hamas that the status quo was never coming back. Of course as the death toll rose you began to come closer to that understanding but you still do not seem to understand that this war will not end until hamas ceases to exist. And you are right, there is no such thing as a 6 year old terrorist. It's truly sad and tragic what Israel must do to achieve its goals. But hamas is inherently evil and they have no problem killing babies, Israelis or their own, in the war to kill the Jew. That is the enemy that Israel faces. And you cannot kill evil within committing evil. The allies had to commit a lot of ugly ugly actions in order to defeat the axis. It was necessary and the men who committed them knew it was necessary.
obaminated Member	Thu Oct 19 15:52:24 Kill evil without* committing evil
obaminated Member	Thu Oct 19 15:56:32 And sa is correct. In a warzone you don't always have time to collect and keep prisoners. This is a war.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Oct 19 16:18:16 lol I broke Paramount.
Paramount Member	Thu Oct 19 17:12:18 You can't break me. I'm like a rubber stick. The strongest wind can tilt me but when the wind tires I bounce back to my upright and steady position. Compare this to you, who were broken by living in your homeland so you had to flee and then to be broken again, by females and social democrats in your new country.
Paramount Member	Thu Oct 19 17:14:02 * females = feminists
Paramount Member	Thu Oct 19 17:19:37 ” I'm fine killing terrorists.” Israel and its settlers have been terrorizing and murdering Palestinians with impunity for decades. That makes them terrorists. So you are fine with if Palestinians kills terrorists too?
Paramount Member	Thu Oct 19 17:23:12 The Palestinians told them to leave, to evacuate. Even the UN told them to leave. What happens to the terrorists when the Palestinian freedom fighters attacks them in self defense, is first and foremost Israel’s responsibility.
obaminated Member	Thu Oct 19 17:26:10 Lol. White house posted a picture of us special forces shaking hands with Biden while he was in Israel. So fucking dangerously incompetent. http://www...dentities-what-we-know-1836269
jergul large member	Thu Oct 19 17:30:27 Obam 4 digits is what I said many times with great consistency. That is up to 10k. Gaslighting is more your thing. Jergul: Israel should fully occupy Gaza and get rid of hamas permanently. Leaving a vacuum will simply allow hamas or its successors rebuild and rinse-repeat operations against Israel. Obam: Look at Jergul supporting hamas while feigning neutrality. Everyone remember. Jergul supports hamas. That friend, is you gaslighting :).
obaminated Member	Thu Oct 19 17:36:28 Eh. No. You were very specific from day one. Nim already c&p'd what you said in a previous thread. But I guess you really do believe in the old adage "tell a lie a million times it becomes a fact". Unfortunately that adage was true in a time prior to the existence of there being automatically recorded forums that everyone can search if they want to spend the 10 minutes to disprove it, lol.
obaminated Member	Thu Oct 19 17:39:38 I complain about there not being an editing function because I use this forum almost exclusively off my phone and spelling errors abound. But now I see if given an editing option there are some posters, like you, who would be too tempted to edit the record to your benefit.
jergul large member	Thu Oct 19 17:55:25 Obam 4 digits. Less than 10k was my specification that I repeated many, many times. I correctly said the attack was a profound embarrassment to Israel and that it would not commit genocide in reponse, but shell the crap out of it and do a few incursions. With civilian casualties limited to the 4 digit range. That is still my position. But you have fun with your gaslighting. You have agency. Nuture the side of you that you find soothing.
jergul large member	Thu Oct 19 17:58:18 Sat Oct 07 11:44:20 I think Israel will extract an acceptably disproportionate toll on Palestinian civilians and militants. Certainly in the 1000nds. Tack on a few punitive strikes against Iran in Syria if you like. But beyond that? Too many hostages and prisoners of war to expect a dramatic escalation. I don't get your problem. Hamas and Israel have been in a state of war for like forever. The only big thing that has happened is that this hamas operation was sort of successful. Most fail. Most civilians will be fine. Israel has tons of shelters. So now the IDF gets to mop up, then do some punitive incursions and bombings inside Gaza. Business as usual once we look beyond the profound embarrassment. ============= Note the timestamp.
jergul large member	Thu Oct 19 18:03:28 Incidentally, if you did a search, you would have found that quote from the 7th. I rather suspect malicious confirmation bias was at play. But by all means. You and nimi do yourselves. Whatever you need to feel content in what must be at times an unpleasant world.
murder Member	Thu Oct 19 20:55:19 "Jergul - no one is saying captured members of hamas need to be executed, unless it's proven they are connected to the mass attack that killed 1.4k civilians." Not no one. They 100% should all be killed. The ones currently in prison too. I have no love or even like for Israel, but if you're going to deal with a problem, then deal with the problem.
murder Member	Thu Oct 19 21:12:41 "Why would they be roaming around?" Because it's impossible to conduct operations or even resupply without moving. "Not really working out for Israel is it." It would be working fine if they killed them all. It would work fine if they quit listening to the Sebs of the world. "And like I said, you need to be living on another planet if you think Israel gives the slightest fuck about whatever any other country complains about." Is all of Gaza ablaze? Has it ever been?
murder Member	Thu Oct 19 21:24:33 The US and UK burned entire cities to the ground with the people in them. When Israel comes close to doing the same, we can talk about Israel not moderating itself due to outside pressure.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Oct 20 02:35:02 Paramount “Compare this to you, who were broken by living in your homeland so you had to flee and then to be broken again, by females and social democrats in your new country.” “You can't break me.” Sure, sure. You can let any mental health professional read this bizarre shit that you just wrote, and they will tell you these are the signs of a mental break down. This is how we know how wretched your kind is, that’s three out of three. You, WTB and Jergul, when broken you all devolve into this character. That’s a hattrick for me ;-)
Seb Member	Fri Oct 20 02:42:29 Obaminated: I'm not responsible for your shitty inferences. Like I said, you are illiterate. Later on I pointed out that going into Gaza is likely what Hamas was trying to provoke. They've probably seen what can be done to troops backed by armour in urban settings with cheap drones now and it's much better than what could be done with pressure cooker IEDs and suicide vests; and reckon that will work out for them. Their strategic objectives is obvious: * de-rail the Saudi - Israeli diplomatic talks * get the PA defunded * Fight Israel in Gaza and score some tactical victories - these appeal to the young Sam's and Obaminated's of Gaza and the west bank will get them to sign up They are betting this will help boost their membership and appeal in the West Bank. Remember, Hamas's strategic objective is to make peace impossible. I thought and continue to think Israel will go in on the ground (eventually), I think they will find it a quagmire, they will probably wind up leaving again in a decade or two having, strategically, achieved nothing. "It's truly sad and tragic what Israel must do to achieve its goals" It doesn't achieve its goals, and it often doesn't *have* to do it either. The cutting off of food, water and power, for example, blocks way more than militarily useful supplies. That was dumb. They've had to walk that back and will need to walk back further. All it did was make it much harder for the Arab world to preserve the diplomatic efforts with Israel that Hamas is targeting, and shift the west into a more cautious posture. It has dumb. The kind of thing you'd do if you were in charge.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Oct 20 02:45:37 "Go home you ungrateful darkie." -jergul "lol average Iranian IQ." -WTB "You broken 6 year old refugee child." -Paramount This some dark stuff :O I don’t think anyone on this board or IRL has said something reaching this level of racist. There was that one-time Hot Rod called me a “sand nigger”. Thanks Paramount, for helping me complete the achievement. Thread is bookmarked.
jergul large member	Fri Oct 20 02:59:52 Nimi You are such a snowflake. How about growing a pair? :). Or, well, you do you. Whatever it takes for you to get through the day :). Murder Extralegal executions.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Oct 20 03:24:40 "How about growing a pair?" Big words for an eunuch.
jergul large member	Fri Oct 20 03:42:16 Ah yes, of course you need projection :). Whatever you need to get through the day little buddy :)
Seb Member	Fri Oct 20 04:00:15 You'll notice the subtext of a lot of former Western military and Israeli military commentary on the ground invasion is to strongly suggest Israel pause for thought before a land invasion and work out what their long term strategy is. Kill Hamas leadership isn't a strategy, just like kill the Taliban wasn't. In the words of Rumsfeld, you need to drain the swamp, not kill snakes. Moving the swamp to Egypt isn't going to work (and Egypt won't let you). Trying to diaspora the Palestinians isn't likely to work either, and won't be permitted (Israel's allies will pull the plug on support rather than allow another refugee wave into the Mediterranean). So you need to get the PA back in control of Gaza to fill the vacuum, but they will need a good reason to do that. The other Arab states could have helped broker that - it dovetails well with basis for the Saudi/Israel rapprochement (contain Iran). However, Israel have made that strategy very difficult to pursue now due to its actions, diplomacy and rhetoric.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Oct 20 04:01:34 Still no word from you about my offer to meet in Malmö. Little buddy :) All kinds of excuses and big words, all gravy and no meatballs.
Seb Member	Fri Oct 20 04:07:36 And I would say, the idea of trying to work expel the Gazans to Sinai is geopolitical madness for the West. With Iran's connections to Hamas it would put an Iranian proxy in striking distance of both the gulf of Aqaba, Suez and the canal. It also allows Iran to destabiliy Egypt and more influence in North Africa, which effects refugee flows to Europe. Given the emerging axis of Iran, China and Russia that's really not at all in Europe or America's interests. And of course it doesn't help Israel as Hamas can still drop rockets and run raids into Israel from Egypt.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Oct 20 04:11:49 "In the words of Rumsfeld, you need to drain the swamp, not kill snakes." What a great reference of a mission accomplished! These metaphors are emblematic for the naive "analysis" made at the time and apparently still being done today.
jergul large member	Fri Oct 20 04:12:56 Nimi Just wait by the door step. I will spend a couple thousand bucks to drop by any minute now :). Seb Israel has to honour its obligations as an occupying power. The PA cannot assume responsibility for civic function of government under occupation rule until the occupier dramatically improves the security situation in Gaza.
Seb Member	Fri Oct 20 04:12:59 "Netanyahu's government approves regulations that allow shutdown of foreign news channels on grounds of national security" Freedom of the press and free speech?
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Oct 20 04:20:59 The defeat of Hamas would greatly destabilize the Islamic republic, it would be the destruction of over 40 years of resources and policy. "Iran, China and Russia" Doesn't actually exist, both China and Russia are just trying to keep Iran calm enough to not start shit with Saudi Arabia and destabilize their regional efforts. Both China and Russia understand that an "ally" preoccupied with beating it's own population over the head for how they dress, is not a stable ally they can invest a lot resources and time in. It's also not congruent with their ideologies or culture. This is very obvious if you actually getting a bit deeper in how China has failed to live up to past agreements in full and how Iran is being side lined with the silk road infrastructure.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Oct 20 04:26:09 Jergul If you ask me nicely, I will pay for the trip.
jergul large member	Fri Oct 20 04:31:32 No, no. You just wait by the door. I will be there momentarily.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Oct 20 04:44:40 Aww buddy, and you already projected that stuff about projection and everything :( This is the final destination of your craziness. If you don’t want to go there, then pretend you have balls and go there. Should I even bother asking paramount? He lives in Stockholm, I’m there a few times a year visiting friend and family. I could go there for a weekend and try to talk some sense into him. He is still young.
Seb Member	Fri Oct 20 04:59:46 Jergul: The goal for Israel is stabilise Gaza and deprive Hamas or similar group of a launchpad to attack Israel. But the overall strategy I think Israel should be pursuing is figuring out how to replace Hamas with an ideally secular Palestinian group sponsored by the suni States it is trying to get into an anti-Iranian alliance with. The objectives then: *Destroy Hamas operationally within Gaza *Fill the ensuring vacuum with a Suni Arab organisation that can provide ongoing security and deny Hamas or other Iranian proxy use of the territory. *Preserve its anti-Iran detente/axis with Saudi and others *Prevent a wider war To that end: 1. Fateh has fought Hamas before, and security is also a function of a state. 2. It would serve suni Arab states interests to see Hamas destroyed and it's powerbase under and allies control. 3. A ground invasion by Israel seems inevitable requirement, but how you frame it and how you undertake it is critical to success of any longer term strategy. 4. The roles and balance of Israeli, Arab and PA forces etc. how they are presented and what functions they perform and what order is detail. Important detail. There are ways you can make this work from a legal perspective. Currently, Netenyahu has done his best to take this strategy off the table. He may have been hoping to use sympathy over Hamas's attack to force the west to write him a blank cheque for a window to go in, destroy Hamas and get out by making public statements announcing warcrimes and collective punishment while politically Western leaders would be expected to offer solidarity. It doesn't appear to have worked, and the hospital incident has inflamed tensions, and while not Israel's fault it is a consequence of bungling/deliberate prior communications policy by Israel. So the situation they face now is more constrained. If they go in for an invasion in the short term, it will be harder to internationalise later. I suspect (though happy to be proved wrong) it will be militarily more difficult than Israel anticipates as we have seen how be technologies have shifted the balance between individualised and insurgent armed forces. They run the risk of getting stuck in Gaza with no conditions for declaring peace, and generating so many additional humanitarian and collateral casualties that their anti-iran axis collapses. If that happens, they will end up withdrawing either quickly with the whole thing being seen as a failure and some folks popping up and claiming they are now Hamas and that they succeeded. Or in a decade or two time (like Lebanon and Gaza) having run out of steam. Irrespective of law and ethics, my key point here is that Israel is bungling its strategy. Forget whether it's right or wrong, it won't *work*.
Paramount Member	Fri Oct 20 06:51:58 "In the words of Rumsfeld, you need to drain the swamp, not kill snakes." They need to end the inhumane blocade of Gaza and the occupation of Palestine, stop murdering children, recognize Palestine's rights to exist, say "we are sorry for what we have done to you" and pay reparations.
murder Member	Fri Oct 20 06:52:28 "Murder Extralegal executions." *shrug*
murder Member	Fri Oct 20 06:54:14 "Given the emerging axis of Iran, China and Russia that's really not at all in Europe or America's interests." Easy enough to knock one of the legs off that stool.
jergul large member	Fri Oct 20 06:58:51 Seb My argument is pragmatic, but does rest on international law - which to a large extent is based on what works and does not work. Israel gave the wierd hands-off occupation a go and it did not work. Physical reoccupation is likely required if PA is to establish itself. However, in the same way that Nabka stiffens everyone's resolve in thinking resettlement is a no-go, you have the Lebanese civil war as an example for why Palestians will avoid fractional fighting to Israel's benefit, if not directly on its behalf. The PA might take over civic governmental functions while Gaza remains under occupation, but are unlikely to enforce an occupation on Israel's behalf unless doing that is easy. An occupation with a goal of normalization could work, but it would have to be part of a two-state solution acceptable to the PA. Then Gaza becomes a matter of martial law until the security situation improves. An occupation otherwise only serves to keep Israeli civilians more secure at the expense of more dead IDF servicemembers enforcing the occupation of Gaza. Like I said, Israel can keep screwing up for 2000 years if it wants to, but the way out of the impasse runs through physical re-occupation. As a premise, but not enough in itself.
murder Member	Fri Oct 20 06:59:50 "The goal for Israel is stabilise Gaza and deprive Hamas or similar group of a launchpad to attack Israel." Don't be naive Seb. All the groups are similar groups.
jergul large member	Fri Oct 20 07:01:16 Murder It is fine to shrug, but following your ideas would give another 4 muslim nuclear powers in very short order. Is that a goal you have?
murder Member	Fri Oct 20 07:08:18 "It is fine to shrug, but following your ideas would give another 4 muslim nuclear powers in very short order." How short do you want it? We can give them nukes in a matter of minutes. You seem to be under the impression that we all have to agree to live by whatever the fuck rules the biggest shitbags decide to set. We don't have to live with a nuclear armed Iran or a nuclear armed North Korea. Those are choices. You only have to live with them once you've allowed them to become dangerous enough where there is no longer recourse ... like Russia and China. And even then you don't have to let them get away with shit outside of their own borders.
jergul large member	Fri Oct 20 07:16:09 Murder "And even then you don't have to let them get away with shit outside of their own borders." You nailed it. That is what you do if and when more countries go nuclear.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Oct 20 07:22:06 Islamic republic is not going to be around for long enough to acquire nuclear weapons, unless they already have them and have managed to hide it somehow. They murmured something recently, vaguely insinuating that the time has come to reveal something. So maybe they already have them, it will change nothing for them versus Israel. Nuclear weapons only have value in deterring annihilation and the annihilation facing these countries is from within, from their own population. Getting them to threaten Israel, that will only speed of their annihilation.
murder Member	Fri Oct 20 08:06:18 "You nailed it. That is what you do if and when more countries go nuclear." You don't have to let them go nuclear. And we shouldn't.
Rugian Member	Fri Oct 20 08:36:55 Jergul Please name the four Muslim countries that you believe would be so terrified of Israel in the event that they brought lasting peace to Gaza that they would feel no option but to become nuclear powers.
Rugian Member	Fri Oct 20 08:42:18 Also I know I'm late to the party here but Seb's moral bankruptcy continues to reach new depths. So now he is blaming Israel's bad "messaging" over why they're not getting more support from the West? WTF? Israel just saw 1,400 of its citizens get butchered by terrorists who deny its right to exist. That unprecedented atrocity should earn them a blank fucking check of support from the West with zero conditions attached. If we thought Israel bombed a Gazan hospital, our response should have been "good for them, doubtless Hamas was illegally occupying it so it was a valid target." Instead, he feigns outrage at Israel's action. And then when he is proven wrong, rather than show any act of contrition he justifies himself by blaming Israel's PR. Fucking disgusting. Be a human being and support Israel Seb.
jergul large member	Fri Oct 20 08:50:19 Ruggy I have named 4 about 4 times. Terrified is not the word. More concern that they live in a region with a nuclear armed rogue regime. Peace is between people, not between terrain features. Peace in a Gaza without Gazans is an expression of genocide.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Oct 20 09:05:30 "nuclear armed rogue regime." lol, completely detached from reality.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Oct 20 09:13:46 You have to view these comments in the context of approved narrative of a social democratic unitary state, that views the conflict from a Marxism power analysis, the weaker party, be they women, gay, palestinian are if not always in the right, always less wrong. Hence the very pivotal moment in the Israeli struggle against the Arabs, when the narrative was changed with the invention of "Palestinians". I know, because I also believed in this. Within that framework there is faux nuance: Of course Israel should be able to defend itself, but once it has done that, it needs to commit suicide so there can be peace.
Rugian Member	Fri Oct 20 09:14:32 Egypt and Turkey don't hate Israel today and won't in a post Gaza world, Iran is getting nukes anyway and if they do SA follows..
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