Utopia Talk / Politics / Gaza: quae sit necesse accidere victis

Rugian Member	Wed Nov 01 09:33:12 "[The leader of Hamas], after sustaining such a series of losses [against the Israelis], summons his men to a council. He impresses on them 'that the war must be prosecuted on a very different system from that which had been previously adopted, but they should by all means aim at this object... That the interests of private property must be neglected for the sake of the general safety; that the villages and houses ought to be fired, over such an extent of country in every direction from [Gaza City]...[and] that the towns which were not secured against every danger by their fortifications or natural advantages ought to be burned; that there should not be places of retreat for their own countrymen for declining military service, nor be exposed to the [Israelis] as inducements to carry off abundance of provisions and plunder. If these sacrifices should appear heavy or galling, that they ought to consider it much more distressing that their wives and children should be dragged off to slavery, and themselves slain; the evils WHICH MUST NECESSARILY BEFALL THE CONQUERED.'" Link to previous: http://uto...hread=92283&time=1698772148717
Habebe Member	Wed Nov 01 09:55:57 We speak Englisch here.
murder Member	Wed Nov 01 10:10:17 We speak Spanish here. :oP
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Nov 01 10:33:33 Seb "Tell me again how this shows universal support in the Arab and Muslim world for Hamas? I literally pointed this out to you earlier." I have no idea what you are on about, nor do I read everything you say in these threads. Life is too short and you are too stupid. You have to be specific about what you are hallucinating about, with quotations. If I have the time, I will explain why you are stupid, have read things out of context, read in your own bias into my words, or not read what I have said at all.
Sam Adams Member	Wed Nov 01 12:47:28 That sounds like a caesar quote talking about gauls? Filthy gauls.
obaminated Member	Wed Nov 01 12:50:14 Well. It's from the perspective of a defeated people learning to accept the consequences of defeat. So probably not ceasar.
Sam Adams Member	Wed Nov 01 12:53:30 Its caesar writing about a gaul talking i think
Rugian Member	Wed Nov 01 13:21:45 Sam It's Vercingetorix talking about how best to stop Caesar shortly before the latter sieged Avaricum. Very good. Find out what happens to the Gauls of Avaricum with the next thread! Lol
Rugian Member	Wed Nov 01 13:22:46 Rome was so badass
Paramount Member	Wed Nov 01 14:01:44 Several ISRAELI Knesset members left their meeting CRYING today due to the “HEAVY CASUALTIES” their military has suffered against Hamas thus far. http://x.com/jacksonhinklle/status/1719725592633880653 lol Maybe if the jews would stop to target and kill civilians, babies, children, and instead go after Hamas, then maybe the knesset wouldn’t need to cry so much. But after more than 3 weeks of immense bombing and shelling of Gaza, Hamas is still able to shoot rockets even though Israel claims that they are only targetting Hamas. But it looks like more like Israel is mostly targetting and killing civilians while Hamas is allowed to continue to kill jews. It is almost as if Israel wants Hamas to remain, as if Israel need them as a pretext to murder as many civilians as possible. If Hamas is gone, Israel lose the pretext to murder civilians.
Paramount Member	Wed Nov 01 14:36:51 Here it is. They literally say it on TV, that they are not targetting anyone but civilians: http://x.com/jordanuhl/status/1719787207232504098
obaminated Member	Wed Nov 01 16:14:19 Lol. They were shown footage of civilians getting murdered on the 7th attack. I love how parafag follows blatantly dishonest twitter accounts that twitter fact checks and immediately embarrasses.
obaminated Member	Wed Nov 01 16:17:46 I mean, we all know parafag doesn't care about the truth. That was established on October 7th when he claimed a female German citizen who was raped and butchered by Palestinians was an idf soldier. This this immediate self fail is always a delight. And the funniest part is the fag is too stupid to realize he probably shouldn't trust random Twitter accounts to not immediately embarrass themselves with blatant lies and propaganda.
obaminated Member	Wed Nov 01 19:55:20 http://www...min-Netanyahu-calls-pause.html A rabbi who shares sebs beliefs, lol.
murder Member	Wed Nov 01 23:01:05 Biden going weak in the knees. Israel shouldn't stop or slow down for anyone or anything. If the Palestinians want this to end, they can kill or surrender Hamas in its entirety to be executed.
Rugian Member	Wed Nov 01 23:54:42 It's amazing how much influence the Squad has overrun POTATUS. He went from "Israel has a blank check" to being an equivocating motherfucker because Tlaib and Omar raised a stink, wtf?
Rugian Member	Thu Nov 02 00:37:08 "NEW - Hamas official Ghazi Hamad says they will repeat October 7-like attacks until Israel is annihilated." http://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1719665588228751481
obaminated Member	Thu Nov 02 07:37:15 "This doesn't help my narrative!" - seb
Rugian Member	Thu Nov 02 09:27:15 Obaminated Of course it does. According to Seb, Israel just has to - "Get rid" of Hamas (whatever that means) in a manner that respects the human rights of Gazans generally -Offer the Palestinians a path to statehood that fully capitulates to all of their demands, including dismantling of settlements, land bridge between Gaza and West Bank, sovereignty over East Jerusalem, RoR etc. - Hope that the Palestinians magically decide to stop being extremists and instead adopt a love of Jews and become a fantastic partner for peace in the Mideast All eminently doable as you see.
obaminated Member	Thu Nov 02 10:13:02 So I originally claimed on the 7th of October that the time for listening to the sebs of the citizenry (or something like that was over). Really it wasn't until like the 12th when it became clear that people like Seb don't have the moral backbone to see done what needs to be done and as such they need to be ignored. I believe this is why the Israeli parliament, the knesset, was forced to watch videos of the victims on the 7th. The fighting has begun. And we cannot allow weakness to infect the war. So be forced to remember what we are fighting for because the sebs amongst us will quickly forget.
obaminated Member	Thu Nov 02 10:15:50 Sorry for the seb hate of late. It's just like parafag is clearly a degenerate who has no interest in the truth, jergul hates everything of the West despite benefiting from living in the west. But seb is the sole dissenter amongst us and as such should be shamed into silence. He knows better. Or if he doesn't he will be forced to learn better.
Seb Member	Thu Nov 02 10:16:52 Nim: "I have no idea what you are on about, nor do I read everything you say in these threads." I literally pointed out to you and Sam that Hamas was being given hostile interviews by Arab press, in Arabic, to an Arab audiences where the interviewers were criticising their killing of citizens and unilateral breaking of the cease fire (in which Hamas was lying) to demonstrate that Hamas's actions clearly did not have majority backing in the Arab world. Now you are citing a similar such interview back at me, with the Arab interviewer again pointing out the shityness and irresponsibility and liability of Hamas and asserting that I would support Hamas on this point. I mean what happened Nim? Did you fall on your head as a child.
obaminated Member	Thu Nov 02 10:17:43 Also, hamas is using drones to drop grenades on idf. They really should know better than to clump up together, even during quiet times. http://www...armed_drone_strike_on_a_large/
obaminated Member	Thu Nov 02 10:21:50 http://www...tage_from_israel_idf_releases/ F35 intercepts missile from Yemen (houthis). Fuck yeah.
Seb Member	Thu Nov 02 10:22:51 Rugian: And your solution is that all Palestininans are Hamas and so killing children in all circumstances is entirely justified in all circumstances. " "Get rid" of Hamas (whatever that means)" The word I initially used is destroy. It is the same word that the Israeli's use. "in a manner that respects the human rights of Gazans generally" Yes, subject to LOAC "Offer the Palestinians a path to statehood" Yes "that fully capitulates to all of their demands," No. You invented that. "including dismantling of settlements" Most of the ones in the west bank yes. They are illegal. "land bridge between Gaza and West Bank" No. "sovereignty over East Jerusalem" Joint sovereignty can work. Especially as what is defined as "East Jerusalem" has substantially changed since 1995. "RoR etc." No. "Hope that the Palestinians magically decide to stop being extremists" They are perfectly entitled to defend themselves as a nation against Palestinians from behind a wall, as they have been content to do in the case of Gaza for nearly 20 years. There can be a role for Israel's Arab allies as guarantors here. Or other countries.
Seb Member	Thu Nov 02 10:25:21 Obaminated: Yeah, expected that drones might make things different than last time. But so far it seems Hamas either hasn't got remotely enough to replicate the threat we have seen in similar urban conflict or Israel is very good at mitigating it - (I suspect a lot of the former and a bit of the latter) - or we just aren't seeing it (unlikely even with the disruption to internet).
Rugian Member	Thu Nov 02 10:36:05 Seb "Destroy Hamas" "Respect LOAC" These two are incompatable with each other. "Yes" Sane nations do not reward terrorism. No. "No. You invented that." No, the Palestinians invented that. We saw what happened when Israel offered then 90% of everything they were asking for at Camp David. The Palestinians' response? Walk away without even a counter and proceed to start butchering Jews. There is no peace that Palestinian leadership will accept that does not involve a complete capitulation on Israel's part. "Most of the ones in the west bank yes. They are illegal." They are here to stay. If the Palestinians hate them so much, then they should have sued got peace decades ago. Instead they decided to spend that time killing more Jews. Settlements are one of the consequences of that decision. "They are perfectly entitled to defend themselves as a nation against Palestinians from behind a wall, as they have been content to do in the case of Gaza for nearly 20 years" The defense of Israel requires regular major interventions into "Palestinian" territory. This will remain the case until the Palestinians elect leadership that is interested in peace (as opposed to Hamas and Fatah).
Rugian Member	Thu Nov 02 10:42:36 Imagine if Scottish terrorists murdered 25,000 Englishmen on the streets of your cities tomorrow and your reaction would be "you know what, the Scottish people have earned the right to another independence referendum, let's do it." It's insane to me that you can think this way.
Paramount Member	Thu Nov 02 11:13:53 28 October 2023 This will be my last official communication to you as Director of the New York Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights. I write at a moment of great anguish for the world, including for many of our colleagues. Once again, we are seeing a genocide unfolding before our eyes, and the Organization that we serve appears powerless to stop it. As someone who has investigated human rights in Palestine since the 1980s, lived in Gaza as a UN human rights advisor in the 1990s, and carried out several human rights missions to the country before and since, this is deeply personal to me. I also worked in these halls through the genocides against the Tutsis, Bosnian Muslims, the Yazidi, and the Rohingya. In each case, when the dust settled on the horrors that had been perpetrated against defenseless civilian populations, it became painfully clear that we had failed in our duty to meet the imperatives of prevention of mass atrocites, of protection of the vulnerable, and of accountability for perpetrators. And so it has been with successive waves of murder and persecution against the Palestinians throughout the entire life of the UN. High Commissioner, we are failing again. As a human rights lawyer with more than three decades of experience in the field, I know well that the concept of genocide has often been subject to political abuse. But the current wholesale slaughter of the Palestinian people, rooted in an ethno-nationalist settler colonial ideology, in continuation of decades of their systematic persecution and purging, based entirely upon their status as Arabs, and coupled with explicit statements of intent by leaders in the Israeli government and military, leaves no room for doubt or debate. In Gaza, civilian homes, schools, churches, mosques, and medical institutions are wantonly attacked as thousands of civilians are massacred. In the West Bank, including occupied Jerusalem, homes are seized and reassigned based entirely on race, and violent settler pogroms are accompanied by Israeli military units. Across the land, Apartheid rules. This is a text-book case of genocide. The European, ethno-nationalist, settler colonial project in Palestine has entered its final phase, toward the expedited destruction of the last remnants of indigenous Palestinian life in Palestine. What’s more, the governments of the United States, the United Kingdom, and much of Europe, are wholly complicit in the horrific assault. Not only are these governments refusing to meet their treaty obligations “to ensure respect” for the Geneva Conventions, but they are in fact actively arming the assault, providing economic and intelligence support, and giving political and diplomatic cover for Israel’s atrocities. In concert with this, western corporate media, increasingly captured and state-adjacent, are in open breach of Article 20 of the ICCPR, continuously dehumanizing Palestinians to facilitate the genocide, and broadcasting propaganda for war and advocacy of national, racial, or religious hatred that constitutes incitement to discrimination, hostility, and violence. US-based social media companies are suppressing the voices of human rights defenders while amplifying pro-Israel propaganda. Israel lobby online-trolls and GONGOS are harassing and smearing human rights defenders, and western universities and employers are collaborating with them to punish those who dare to speak out against the atrocities. In the wake of this genocide, there must be an accounting for these actors as well, just as there was for radio Milles Collines in Rwanda. In such circumstances, the demands on our organization for principled and effective action are greater than ever. But we have not met the challenge. The protective enforcement power Security Council has again been blocked by US intransigence, the SG is under assault for the mildest of protestations, and our human rights mechanisms are under sustained slanderous attack by an organized, online impunity network. Decades of distraction by the illusory and largely disingenuous promises of Oslo have diverted the Organization from its core duty to defend international law, international human rights, and the Charter itself. The mantra of the “two-state solution” has become an open joke in the corridors of the UN, both for its utter impossibility in fact, and for its total failure to account for the inalienable human rights of the Palestinian people. The so-called “Quartet” has become nothing more than a fig leaf for inaction and for subservience to a brutal status quo. The (US-scripted) deference to “agreements between the parties themselves” (in place of international law) was always a transparent slight-of-hand, designed to reinforce the power of Israel over the rights of the occupied and dispossessed Palestinians. High Commissioner, I came to this Organization first in the 1980s, because I found in it a principled, norm- based institution that was squarely on the side of human rights, including in cases where the powerful US, UK, and Europe were not on our side. While my own government, its subsidiarity institutions, and much of the US media were still supporting or justifying South African apartheid, Israeli oppression, and Central American death squads, the UN was standing up for the oppressed peoples of those lands. We had international law on our side. We had human rights on our side. We had principle on our side. Our authority was rooted in our integrity. But no more. In recent decades, key parts of the UN have surrendered to the power of the US, and to fear of the Israel Lobby, to abandon these principles, and to retreat from international law itself. We have lost a lot in this abandonment, not least our own global credibility. But the Palestinian people have sustained the biggest losses as a result of our failures. It is a stunning historic irony that the Universal Declaration of Human Rights was adopted in the same year that the Nakba was perpetrated against the Palestinian people. As we commemorate the 75th Anniversary of the UDHR, we would do well to abandon the old cliché that the UDHR was born out of the atrocities that proceeded it, and to admit that it was born alongside one of the most atrocious genocides of the 20th Century, that of the destruction of Palestine. In some sense, the framers were promising human rights to everyone, except the Palestinian people. And let us remember as well, that the UN itself carries the original sin of helping to facilitate the dispossession of the Palestinian people by ratifying the European settler colonial project that seized Palestinian land and turned it over to the colonists. We have much for which to atone. But the path to atonement is clear. We have much to learn from the principled stance taken in cities around the world in recent days, as masses of people stand up against the genocide, even at risk of beatings and arrest. Palestinians and their allies, human rights defenders of every stripe, Christian and Muslim organizations, and progressive Jewish voices saying “not in our name”, are all leading the way. All we have to do is to follow them. Yesterday, just a few blocks from here, New York’s Grand Central Station was completely taken over by thousands of Jewish human rights defenders standing in solidarity with the Palestinian people and demanding an end to Israeli tyranny (many risking arrest, in the process). In doing so, they stripped away in an instant the Israeli hasbara propaganda point (and old antisemitic trope) that Israel somehow represents the Jewish people. It does not. And, as such, Israel is solely responsible for its crimes. On this point, it bears repeating, in spite of Israel lobby smears to the contrary, that criticism of Israel’s human rights violations is not antisemitic, any more than criticism of Saudi violations is Islamophobic, criticism of Myanmar violations is anti-Buddhist, or criticism of Indian violations is anti-Hindu. When they seek to silence us with smears, we must raise our voice, not lower it. I trust you will agree, High Commissioner, that this is what speaking truth to power is all about. But I also find hope in those parts of the UN that have refused to compromise the Organization’s human rights principles in spite of enormous pressures to do so. Our independent special rapporteurs, commissions of enquiry, and treaty body experts, alongside most of our staff, have continued to stand up for the human rights of the Palestinian people, even as other parts of the UN (even at the highest levels) have shamefully bowed their heads to power. As the custodians of the human rights norms and standards, OHCHR has a particular duty to defend those standards. Our job, I believe, is to make our voice heard, from the Secretary- General to the newest UN recruit, and horizontally across the wider UN system, insisting that the human rights of the Palestinian people are not up for debate, negotiation, or compromise anywhere under the blue flag. What, then, would a UN-norm-based position look like? For what would we work if we were true to our rhetorical admonitions about human rights and equality for all, accountability for perpetrators, redress for victims, protection of the vulnerable, and empowerment for rights-holders, all under the rule of law? The answer, I believe, is simple—if we have the clarity to see beyond the propagandistic smokescreens that distort the vision of justice to which we are sworn, the courage to abandon fear and deference to powerful states, and the will to truly take up the banner of human rights and peace. To be sure, this is a long-term project and a steep climb. But we must begin now or surrender to unspeakable horror. I see ten essential points: 1. Legitimate action: First, we in the UN must abandon the failed (and largely disingenuous) Oslo paradigm, its illusory two-state solution, its impotent and complicit Quartet, and its subjugation of international law to the dictates of presumed political expediency. Our positions must be unapologetically based on international human rights and international law. 2. Clarity of Vision: We must stop the pretense that this is simply a conflict over land or religion between two warring parties and admit the reality of the situation in which a disproportionately powerful state is colonizing, persecuting, and dispossessing an indigenous population on the basis of their ethnicity. 3. One State based on human rights: We must support the establishment of a single, democratic, secular state in all of historic Palestine, with equal rights for Christians, Muslims, and Jews, and, therefore, the dismantling of the deeply racist, settler-colonial project and an end to apartheid across the land. 4. Fighting Apartheid: We must redirect all UN efforts and resources to the struggle against apartheid, just as we did for South Africa in the 1970s, 80s, and early 90s. 5. Return and Compensation: We must reaffirm and insist on the right to return and full compensation for all Palestinians and their families currently living in the occupied territories, in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, and in the diaspora across the globe. 6. Truth and Justice: We must call for a transitional justice process, making full use of decades of accumulated UN investigations, enquiries, and reports, to document the truth, and to ensure accountability for all perpetrators, redress for all victims, and remedies for documented injustices. 7. Protection: We must press for the deployment of a well-resourced and strongly mandated UN protection force with a sustained mandate to protect civilians from the river to the sea. 8. Disarmament: We must advocate for the removal and destruction of Israel’s massive stockpiles of nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons, lest the conflict lead to the total destruction of the region and, possibly, beyond. 9. Mediation: We must recognize that the US and other western powers are in fact not credible mediators, but rather actual parties to the conflict who are complicit with Israel in the violation of Palestinian rights, and we must engage them as such. 10. Solidarity: We must open our doors (and the doors of the SG) wide to the legions of Palestinian, Israeli, Jewish, Muslim, and Christian human rights defenders who are standing in solidarity with the people of Palestine and their human rights and stop the unconstrained flow of Israel lobbyists to the offices of UN leaders, where they advocate for continued war, persecution, apartheid, and impunity, and smear our human rights defenders for their principled defense of Palestinian rights. This will take years to achieve, and western powers will fight us every step of the way, so we must be steadfast. In the immediate term, we must work for an immediate ceasefire and an end to the longstanding siege on Gaza, stand up against the ethnic cleansing of Gaza, Jerusalem, and the West Bank (and elsewhere), document the genocidal assault in Gaza, help to bring massive humanitarian aid and reconstruction to the Palestinians, take care of our traumatized colleagues and their families, and fight like hell for a principled approach in the UN’s political offices. The UN’s failure in Palestine thus far is not a reason for us to withdraw. Rather it should give us the courage to abandon the failed paradigm of the past, and fully embrace a more principled course. Let us, as OHCHR, boldly and proudly join the anti-apartheid movement that is growing all around the world, adding our logo to the banner of equality and human rights for the Palestinian people. The world is watching. We will all be accountable for where we stood at this crucial moment in history. Let us stand on the side of justice. I thank you, High Commissioner, Volker, for hearing this final appeal from my desk. I will leave the Office in a few days for the last time, after more than three decades of service. But please do not hesitate to reach out if I can be of assistance in the future. Sincerely, Craig Mokhiber
Sam Adams Member	Thu Nov 02 11:15:04 "It's Vercingetorix" Ahhh yes. Leading to one of the greatest battles of all time. And one of the greatest paintings of all time: http://fin...-caesar-lionel-noel-royer.html
Sam Adams Member	Thu Nov 02 11:17:03 Of course mountme thinks a jackson hinkle post is real. Ahahahaha.
Paramount Member	Thu Nov 02 11:47:35 While Hamas freedom fighters are busy fighting the IDF occupation forces, the IDF itself is busy mass murdering civilians, mostly babies and children. http://x.com/ytirawi/status/1719756956598980928
Seb Member	Thu Nov 02 11:51:29 Rugian: "These two are incompatible with each other." Incorrect. "Sane nations do not reward terrorism." Just nations do not engage in collective punishment. "No, the Palestinians invented that." "The Palestinians" are not accusing me of holding views I do not hold. You are. Those are not my positions, yet they are the ones you have ascribed to me purely from your own idiotic mind. Own your own bullshit Rugian. "We saw what happened when Israel offered then 90% of everything they were asking for at Camp David." It wasn't 90%, as we have seen subsequently from the the Palestine Papers leak. "The Palestinians' response? Walk away without even a counter" Firstly, they were told no counter was possible. Secondly, they did not walk away, Abbas asked for time to consider the Olmert Govts proposals around land swaps. The Israeli govt changed, and the Sharon govt (which opposed 2 state solution and the Oslo process) withdrew the land swap offer leaving the PA with the offer remarkably similar to what we have now: a Palestinian "state" that has no control over its borders in any direction, no air rights, no sea rights, no water rights, no mineral rights and not even freedom of movement throughout the west bank. That is not a sovereign Palestinian state, that is what Gaza has been for the last ten years. "There is no peace that Palestinian leadership will accept that does not involve a complete capitulation on Israel's part." The reverse is true, these supposedly "generous" conditions that were what was left on the table by Sharon govt is a demand for complete capitulation for the Palestinians. "They are here to stay." Then in creating them, Israel has made peace impossible. If all the settlements stay, then there is no possiblity for a Palestinian stat and the international system needs to move on to discuss the path to granting Palestinians full civil rights within Israel. Which of course means the end of the Jewish state. They have to withdraw from the bulk of the west bank, as they withdrew from Gaza. "Settlements are one of the consequences of that decision." Logical nonsense. If Palestinian presence threatens Israelis so much, why do Israelis keep settling in palestinian lands and clearing them off by threatening to kill them (as they are currently doing now in the west bank). "The defense of Israel requires regular major interventions into "Palestinian" territory." Then they may do so as and when justified. But do not claim sovereignty over that land, and plant settlements. "This will remain the case until the Palestinians elect leadership that is interested in peace (as opposed to Hamas and Fatah)." Fatah remains committed to the two state solution. It is is Israel that rejects that principle.
Paramount Member	Thu Nov 02 12:06:20 Jewish official confirms on TV that jews are not the victims: http://x.com/sprinter99800/status/1719717468715753575
Sam Adams Member	Thu Nov 02 12:11:53 "Just nations do not engage in collective punishment." War is collective punishment. Your own nation starved and firebombed germany into submission twice in the last 105 years seb. Lol you dunce. Not that that was the wrong move for the allies, just pointing out that you are willfully ignorant of history.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Nov 02 12:41:24 Seb You are incoherent. You are now asserting something completely different than: ”Tell me again how this shows universal support in the Arab and Muslim world for Hamas?” That is your question. What are you talking about? Provide quotes. This is the “do all muslims rape all the time”, that you are notorious for. Where have I said or implied this?
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Nov 02 12:49:18 Seb “to demonstrate that Hamas's actions clearly did not have majority backing in the Arab world.” You watched a couple of interviews and concluded that these journalists questions are representative for the majority Arab/Muslim world? All the Arab countries even, you don’t think it would even vary in this so called “arab world”. Amazing.
Sam Adams Member	Thu Nov 02 12:58:14 Gaza city is encircled and cut off.
Seb Member	Thu Nov 02 13:29:39 Sam: These terms have actually defined meanings drafted by people that fought WW2 and derived principles that set our honourable (as you call it) conduct in that war against that if the axis powers. I encourage you to go look at them rather than make asinine comments that merely betray your own ignorance and the honour of your forefathers.
Seb Member	Thu Nov 02 13:31:03 Nim: It's not my problem if you can't follow an argument. One can take an equine to water but one cannot make it drink, especially if it is a rabid and stubborn mule determined not to.
Seb Member	Thu Nov 02 13:31:39 Also Arab world was Rugians choice of terminology so take it up with him?
Sam Adams Member	Thu Nov 02 13:44:42 Gaza city is encircled and cut off.
Sam Adams Member	Thu Nov 02 13:47:02 "These terms have actually defined meanings" Which are not understood by you.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Nov 02 13:50:04 Seb So, you actually having nothing to back up your question adressing *me* for something you asserted I had said. And now you want to drag Rugian into this? You aound mental.
obaminated Member	Thu Nov 02 14:11:36 Yeah seb is gone. Wtf does "just nations don't engage in collective punishment" mean? It's academic verbiage that he shields his idiocy in. Hamas is the governing body of gaza. Hamas launched a surprise attack on Israel. Israel is now at war with hamas. Gazans will suffer for their governments actions. This is the way of war.
obaminated Member	Thu Nov 02 14:13:36 http://www...llers-roasted-babies-oven.html More hamas atrocities come to light all of us rational folk knew happened. But it'll be something that seb will either ignore or deny.
Paramount Member	Thu Nov 02 14:16:30 ”Gaza city is encircled and cut off” Nah. Remember that the freedom fighters has tunnels. They will popup behind and encircle the IDF. The IDF is a very poor fighting force. They are mostly used to fighting civilian women and babies.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Nov 02 14:18:58 Ah, but see, according to international law and the Geneva convention, I can shit here and you have to clean it up. It's the law. Like we needed more reasons to denounce the corrupt global order.
obaminated Member	Thu Nov 02 14:21:03 Two hamas terrorists killed wearing go pros during the 7th attack. http://www...killed_by_idf_on_base_correct/ Love how they scream and shout and then shut the fuck up once they are shot and realizing they are dying. No Allah akbar from their dying breaths.
obaminated Member	Thu Nov 02 14:22:37 Compilation of idf airstrikes with comm. http://www...ed_gaza_airstrike_compilation/ Love the top comment "Hamas said God would protect gaza. I guess God is on vacation.
obaminated Member	Thu Nov 02 14:28:47 But yeah, hamas will encircle the idf parafag. Keep reading those personal Twitter accounts feeding you total bullshit. Remember when you justified the rape and murder of that German chick because she was idf?
murder Member	Thu Nov 02 14:45:30 "Hamas said God would protect gaza. I guess God is on vacation." Guess no one told them that the Jews are god's chosen people.
murder Member	Thu Nov 02 14:53:11 "Just nations do not engage in collective punishment." That's navel gazer talk. You do whatever you need to do to achieve victory now, and feel bad about it later.
Sam Adams Member	Thu Nov 02 23:17:36 Biden may be fucking this up badly. Seems like he is telling israel they have only "weeks" left and that he is considering leaving hamas in power. Pretty easy trump win in 2024 if so. Biden is not going to get the pro-hamas vote back, and hes going to lose jews and moderates too.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Nov 03 05:56:23 Masoud Asadi who is the head of Basiji medical corps and chief of the public health authority of Babol, stated on TV that the Basij has lost 100 medical personal in Gaza. Contrast that with the 120 that official numbers out of Gaza. Make of that what you will, but IRGC personal in Gaza are not medical personal, at least not in the strict sense. Islamic Republic has people in Gaza fighting along side Hamas.
murder Member	Fri Nov 03 07:06:27 Biden can't actually stop Israel if Israel decides they are not stopping. Israel has nukes, and the Israeli lobby and their money isn't going anywhere.
Seb Member	Fri Nov 03 07:57:11 Nim: I believe it was Rugian that kicked off the initial conversation (it may have been Sam) making broad assertions that the Arab world reveled in Hamas's genocidal actions which is why they publicised it. I pointed out that to the contrary, Arab media was largely condemning and giving hostile interviews to Hamas that were then lying and defying about what they had done, not broadcasting it, because it was costing them support in the Arab world. You weighed in on that conversation. Now you are citing the same hostile interviews... go figure.
Seb Member	Fri Nov 03 07:58:47 Obaminated: Oh, so we are recognising Gaza as a sovereign state and Hamas as a govt? That's news to me.
Seb Member	Fri Nov 03 07:59:33 "But it'll be something that seb will either ignore or deny." I really don't know why you pretend I'm pro Hamas. It just makes you look dumb.
Seb Member	Fri Nov 03 08:01:25 Murder: That's the point, the definition of collections punishment excludes actions with military objectives. It's almost like the concept was created by the victorious armies of WW2 specifically *not* to include actions they took to defeat the Nazis. Arguing that its necessary to commit crimes that weren't necessary to defeat the fucking Nazis is a bit of a reach.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Nov 03 08:59:59 Seb We are no closer to you supporting your question with quotes where I have implied or said: ”Tell me again how this shows universal support in the Arab and Muslim world for Hamas?” We are no close because it doesn't exist. You are hallucinating. You may have even remembered I explained that majority sentiment in Iran is anti-Palestine and at least tacitly support Israel. I have not as much information from Arab countries, but I have seen enough to know there are many many Arabs who are fucking tired with the Palestinians and view that like I do, impossible. Even the governments that "support" Palestine are doing so because it serves as a geopolitical tool, not sympathy for dead Palestinians children. The link I provided had it's own commentary and my commentary has nothing to do with what Rugian or Sam said, I have no idea what they said, it has nothing to do with sentiments among muslims or surrounding arab countries broadly. I have thus with that post not "weighed in on what Rugian and Sam have said". I am the original author of the term "Sebgul" and the analysis of their "logic" on this board, regarding Israel and "muh international law". You are completely incoherent.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Nov 03 09:05:37 Seb "I really don't know why you pretend I'm pro Hamas. It just makes you look dumb." At best you are a useful idiot of Islamist. At worst you are not supporting Hamas, the way Jergul isn't supporting Russia :)
Paramount Member	Fri Nov 03 10:24:33 I have not followed your discussion, but what is it that you want to say? ”You may have even remembered I explained that majority sentiment in Iran is anti-Palestine and at least tacitly support Israel. I have not as much information from Arab countries, but I have seen enough to know there are many many Arabs who are fucking tired with the Palestinians and view that like I do, impossible. Even the governments that "support" Palestine are doing so because it serves as a geopolitical tool, not sympathy for dead Palestinians children.” You have seen that many arabs are tired of Palestinians and therefore the Palestinian people should all be killed?
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Nov 03 10:41:27 Paramount, you can’t follow a straight line, and given how confused the literal nuclear scientists is, what hopes do you have following this? In other news Nasrallah gave the speech he announced earlier this week. He distanced Hezbollah from the 7th October massacres, saying that they had no part in it. They will keep the northern front active and escalate if Israel doesn’t stop their aggression. He also threatened America, referencing the 1983 Marine barracks bombing. Iraqi militias went on high alert a couple of days ago. Things are getting hotter.
Paramount Member	Fri Nov 03 10:46:31 Just answer my question above ^ I also wonder how many arabs are tired of the Palestinians? 10? 100? 1000? More than are tired of the Zionists?
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Nov 03 12:25:21 I don't answer retarded "questions".
Sam Adams Member	Fri Nov 03 12:35:39 Hamas shot a crowd of palestinians trying to walk out of gaza city with white flags. They are desperate for their human shields to stay. Looks like about 30 women/kids dead on a highway. Of course all the muslums/mountmes/leftists are sharing the video and calling it an israeli airstrike. Rofl.
obaminated Member	Fri Nov 03 16:37:32 We knew that they were doing that.
Sam Adams Member	Fri Nov 03 17:19:07 One of rashida talibs palestinian imports to the US was caught planning a mass shooting of jews
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Nov 03 19:25:21 http://twitter.com/AmirTaheri4/status/1720475945184768153 It seems Hamas has more fans in London, Paris, Berlin, New York & Sydney than cities in any of Arab League nations & 57 member-nations of Organization of Islamic Cooperation. Pro-Palestine demo in Tehran raised 5000 people. In Baghdad 4000. In Islamabad 3000. In London 70,000. lol :)
Seb Member	Sat Nov 04 02:48:14 Nim: *Yawn*. There are two of us talking, you and me. Either you know full well what you said and are trying to deny it, or you are trolling. I'm not going to bother to go back and dig out the quote showing what you said when we both know it. Especially and given the fact you frequently and deliberately attribute statements to me you know to be true. Serial liars don't get to demand performative acts to prove good faith when they obviously aren't acting in it themselves and I honestly couldn't care less about your protestations.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sat Nov 04 05:43:29 Seb ” There are two of us talking, you and me” So now you have abandoned sam and rugian and how I weighed in of what they said? Good lord man, you have no integrity, moral or cognitive. You are not going to go digging for quotes, because they don’t exist.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sat Nov 04 05:59:53 The irony here is that you accuse me of considering the arab/muslim countries and populations as monolithic in support of Hamas, and then go on to extrapolate sentiments from a couple of questions from a couple of interviews. I am reminded that you constantly do this, last time about black sentiments in the USA. Where I gave you a list of black people (that you had never of) disagreeing with you. You know why you do this? Because you are a racist and think people with certain skin color should have certain opinions :-) I could give you a list of Arab names for Palestine. In fact not that many threads ago I linked the UAE foreign minister scolding Sebguls in Europe about their parochialism and ignorance on Islam. Did you miss that?
Sam Adams Member	Sat Nov 04 13:41:11 http://x.com/adammaanit/status/1720861160440738177?s=20 More terrorist supporters in sebland
Sam Adams Member	Sat Nov 04 14:02:52 http://x.com/DSchwammenthal/status/1720866411680006467?s=20 Cant fly UK flags in london, since it angers sens people
Rugian Member	Sat Nov 04 15:01:07 This motherfucker should officially be crowned as the king of equivocation: "Former President Barack Obama cautioned against ignoring the complexities of the Israel-Hamas war, warning that “all of us are complicit.” “If you want to solve the problem, then you have to take in the whole truth. And you then have to admit nobody’s hands are clean, that all of us are complicit to some degree,” he said in an excerpted interview with Pod Save America released Saturday. Reflecting on his presidency, Obama posed the question, “Well, was there something else I could have done?” The former president argued that it was important to acknowledge multiple seemingly contradictory truths: Hamas’ actions were “horrific,” but “the occupation and what’s happening to Palestinians” were also “unbearable.” Obama previously spoke out on the conflict, saying in a statement that any actions by Israel that ignore the human cost of the war against Hamas “could ultimately backfire.”" http://www...l-of-us-are-complicit-00125395 What a piece of shit. To know that this negro is currently leading this country (from behind the throne) is sickening.
murder Member	Sat Nov 04 15:48:44 “If you want to solve the problem, then you have to take in the whole truth. And you then have to admit nobody’s hands are clean, that all of us are complicit to some degree,” Actually you don't have to do any such thing. People may have noticed that the US doesn't have much of a problem with Native American uprisings. The reason for that isn't that we took in the whole truth, it's that we crushed the natives.
Seb Member	Sat Nov 04 16:06:02 Nim: "The irony here is that you accuse me of considering the arab/muslim countries and populations as monolithic in support of Hamas, and then go on to extrapolate sentiments from a couple of questions from a couple of interviews." That is how logic works Nim, if one says "the Arab world uniformly believes X" then it is perfectly reasonable to cite counter examples to demonstrate this is not a statement that can be accepted on the basis of evidence. "You know why you do this? Because you are a racist and think people with certain skin color should have certain opinions :-)" You keep repeating this, even after you yourself pointed out I only pointed out that your position was self-destructive when you revealed your immigration status, rather than your ethnicity. Like I said, I am fully confident now that you are acting in bad faith. As someone pointed out, I will even give users like The Children who are pretty likely to be trolls the benefit of the doubt that they are speaking in good faith. Well done.
Seb Member	Sat Nov 04 16:07:12 Sam: They take them down for cleaning and repair before remembrance day every fucking year.
Seb Member	Sat Nov 04 16:10:51 Murder: You are about a hairs breadth away from arguing that the problem with the holocaust wasn't the principle of it, but just that it was done by the Germans. I said many years ago now that the problem is the values you espouse make you the enemy of the West - this is a good example.
Sam Adams Member	Sat Nov 04 16:35:23 "They take them down for cleaning and repair before remembrance day every fucking year. C Wtf are you babbling about
murder Member	Sat Nov 04 17:01:06 "You are about a hairs breadth away from arguing that the problem with the holocaust wasn't the principle of it, but just that it was done by the Germans." I don't see where the holocaust fits in since Jews and other targeted groups weren't attacking Germany. "I said many years ago now that the problem is the values you espouse make you the enemy of the West - this is a good example." The West is wrong. The West knows it's wrong because the West knows exactly how it became powerful and dominant in the first place.
Sam Adams Member	Sat Nov 04 20:39:32 http://x.com/DrEliDavid/status/1720923380063285589?s=20 Sebs migrants bash a police officers head.
Seb Member	Sun Nov 05 03:25:35 Sam: My mistake, should have clicked through your link. There's a huge media shit show going on where they've taken the flags down on the mall in London and everyone's convinced it has something to do with the Israel march. I assumed you were referring to that. Met frequently refuse to let people counter protest licenced protests (on account of his the Ireland protest by orange order and Catholic nationalists regularly turn into running street battles). This works both ways - when there are protests/vigils etc by British Jewish groups in support of Israel, anyone who might be casually wondering around with Palestinian flags are moved on.
Seb Member	Sun Nov 05 03:29:32 Murder: "I don't see where the holocaust fits in since Jews and other targeted groups weren't attacking Germany." Firstly, nobody thinks the thing that made the Holocaust bad is that the Jews weren't combatants. Secondly, absolutely, the Germans maintained the Jews were a danger to the Reich - again nobody gives a shit whether they believed that in good faith, bad faith, or were just lying. It wouldn't have reduced from the inherent evil. Thirdly, most of the Native Americans and indeed most of the Palestinians aren't attacking Israel (in the case of the Native Americans, it was the US that broke the treaties with native tribes).
Seb Member	Sun Nov 05 03:38:17 Sam: That's a traffic warden, it's from 2018, the perpetrators are in jail. http://twi...?t=Z1Wo6U0F0dClqzbe3fd5EA&s=19
Seb Member	Sun Nov 05 03:39:55 Lol, literally the first thing the police says in your video "you can hold it, you can wave it, just stay this side of the barrier" Sam: YoU CaNt FlY fLaG!!
murder Member	Sun Nov 05 05:47:13 "Secondly, absolutely, the Germans maintained the Jews were a danger to the Reich - again nobody gives a shit whether they believed that in good faith, bad faith, or were just lying. It wouldn't have reduced from the inherent evil." You mean the Nazis. And don't speak for everyone. Yeah it does matter whether they actually believed that or not. Of course it matters whether you're acting in self-defense or simply slaughtering people you hate. "Thirdly, most of the Native Americans and indeed most of the Palestinians aren't attacking Israel (in the case of the Native Americans, it was the US that broke the treaties with native tribes)." Most Palestinians aren't attacking Hamas either. You don't even realize when you are being manipulated. There is no shortage of "innocent" Palestinians who know exactly where the leaders of Hamas are, where they store their weapons, where their tunnels are, and who is an armed militant. They take no direct action against them or even snitch them out. Hamas is Gaza. Gaza is Hamas.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sun Nov 05 06:46:39 Seb Thank goodness you managed to convince yourself you found a way out of this hole you dug. And reassuringly pat yourself on the back, your behavior is not mentally insane at all (!), it’s noble, a model to emulate. In the future, you either quote and reference or just get ignored.
obaminated Member	Sun Nov 05 09:56:17 Don't need to use the N word rugian. You are smarter and better than that.
Sam Adams Member	Sun Nov 05 10:44:18 "just stay this side of the barrier" So he cant wave it where he wants in his own country. My point stands.
Allahuakbar Member	Sun Nov 05 12:29:45 This is not fair, we're just setting priorities http://pbs...XoAAi68x?format=jpg&name=small
Seb Member	Sun Nov 05 13:48:24 Nim: Likewise. Sam: Can you stand in the middle of a freeway and wave a union flag?
Seb Member	Sun Nov 05 13:49:49 Allahuakbar: http://www...-air-strike-vote-a3127491.html
Seb Member	Sun Nov 05 13:53:53 Murder: "You mean the Nazis." ... "Hamas is Gaza. Gaza is Hamas" "Most Palestinians aren't attacking Hamas either." 1. There was armed resistance against Hamas during the coup. Israel prevented Fatah moving arms into Gaza. 2. Hamas has no forces outside Gaza. Inside, Hamas has all the guns. "They take no direct action against them or even snitch them out." Where do you think Israeli intelligence on tunnels and locations of the key underground command centres comes from? Santa's elves?
Seb Member	Sun Nov 05 13:56:24 "Gazans are complicit with Hamas because they don't attack Hamas soldiers armed with automatic weapons using their bare hands. Gaza is Hamas, Hamas is gaza DON't YOU DARE CALL GERMANY IN THE 1930s GERMANY IT WAS JUST THE NAZIS!!!
Seb Member	Sun Nov 05 14:00:51 I suspect many of the palestinan terrorist would claim they believe they are acting in self defence. After all, this entire conflict started with Zionist terrorists ethically cleansing Palestinian villages in the 1940s after driving out the UN backed British mandate with a bombing campaign. Most of the people in gaza of fighting age will have spent almost their entire life under a full blockade that would be considered an act of war against a state. But Gaza is not a state. Except when it is convenient to pretend it is in order to justify killing the civilian population because of their Government (which isn't considered a government except in so far as to justify attacks on an the civil population). M
murder Member	Sun Nov 05 15:06:49 "1. There was armed resistance against Hamas during the coup. Israel prevented Fatah moving arms into Gaza." A terrorist power struggle isn't really what I was talking about. "2. Hamas has no forces outside Gaza. Inside, Hamas has all the guns." Why? It's not like Hamas controls Gaza's borders. Also, all rebellions involve massively out-gunned resistance groups. Hamas is massively out-gunned. They fight anyway. "Where do you think Israeli intelligence on tunnels and locations of the key underground command centres comes from? Santa's elves?" If Israel had good intel on Hamas' tunnels and command centers, Hamas wouldn't have any of either. "DON't YOU DARE CALL GERMANY IN THE 1930s GERMANY IT WAS JUST THE NAZIS!!!" You can call them anything you want, but the ideology was Nazi, not German. "I suspect many of the palestinan terrorist would claim they believe they are acting in self defence. After all, this entire conflict started with Zionist terrorists ethically cleansing Palestinian villages in the 1940s after driving out the UN backed British mandate with a bombing campaign." That's fine. And that's why there are no good guys in this conflict. But while there are no good guys in this conflict, there are undeniably bad guys.
Paramount Member	Sun Nov 05 16:26:07 Freedom fighters keeps attacking the IDF. A number of tanks has been destroyed and an unknown number of fascist soldiers been killed. The IDF keeps killing civilians, mostly women and children. Today the IDF attacked and killed 3 children and their grandmother in Lebanon. The children’s mother was also wounded in the attack.
obaminated Member	Sun Nov 05 16:43:34 Parafag doesn't mind when savages raped and mutilate women. He also believes the idf goes out of its way to kill civilians. Because parafag sold his soul and integrity a long time ago.
	show deleted posts