Utopia Talk / Politics / Mental illness

williamthebastard Member	Wed Mar 05 22:55:53 "The fundamental weakness of Western civilization is empathy" - Sociopathic Elon Musk. Maga voters have chosen to inflict indisputable dangerous mental illness on the world. Cruelty is indeed the point of Maga, as has been pointed out many times. We may never have seen as outspokenly cruel an ideology as Maga. From Beowulf to Lord of the Rings, tales that warn of evil forces coming to the village and leaving it in ruin, misery and death, Maga is the archetype of suffering and destruction that these tales warn us of.
Dukhat Member	Wed Mar 05 23:06:20 Elon’s dad recounted a story where a bunch of kids beat the shit out of Elon when he was young. The hilarious thing is that Elon’s dad basicallyagreed with the kids because Elon had taunted one kid whose dad had died of suicide by saying that his dad was a coward. Elon is one super fucked up individual.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Mar 06 01:29:48 In their discussion, they are complaining about voter ID laws and illegal immigrants voting, and Rogan says “if you’re gonna do that, it’s over,” to which Musk replies, “Exactly. There’s no coming back from that.” A moment later Musk escalates it with the interjection, “civilizational suicide.” (This passage starts here on YouTube; there is a transcript here.) Here is the exchange, then I’ll explain: Rogan: Yeah. Right to the rocks. Bang, crash the boat. Musk: I mean, there’s a guy who posts on X who’s great: Gad Saad.* Rogan: Yeah. He’s a friend of mine. He’s been on the podcast a bunch of times. Musk: Yeah, he’s awesome. … And he talks about, you know, basically suicidal empathy. Like, if there’s, like, there’s so much empathy that you actually suicide yourself. So that we’ve got civilizational suicidal empathy going on. And it’s like, I believe in empathy. Like, I think you should care about other people, but you need to have empathy for civilization as a whole and not commit to a civilizational suicide. Rogan: Also, don’t let someone use your empathy against you so they can completely control your state and then do an insanely bad job of managing it and never get removed. Musk: The fundamental weakness of Western civilization is empathy. The empathy exploit. They’re exploiting a bug in Western civilization, which is the empathy response. So, and I think empathy is good, but you need to think it through and not just be programmed like a robot. Rogan: Right. Understand when empathy has been actually used as a tool. Musk: Yes. Like it’s weaponized. Empathy is the issue. Yeah, weaponized empathy.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Mar 06 01:31:13 http://fam...s-much-worse-than-you-thought/ According to this cite it is much worse. He is a Nazi.
jergul large member	Thu Mar 06 01:42:29 The empathy needed to worry about there being too much empathy proves the empathy whistlers are part of the empathy problem.
jergul large member	Thu Mar 06 01:47:00 So should we not buy Teslas to save the planet from the disruptions inherent to global warming, not for me, but for someone elses children? Or is interstellar space travel for someone elses genetic material something I should think is important? I am confused. Both those things seem to be high empathy issues. Maybe I should just yawn.
Rugian Member	Thu Mar 06 01:47:56 Way to take his comments out of context WTB. He was clearly talking about misplaced empathy that ends up undermining a society. To use the LoTR metaphor, he is talking about idiotic citizens of Gondor who think the gates of Minas Tirith should be opened so that the Orcs could start a new life there. Is that empathetic? Maybe. But it's also categorically insane. That's what you and your leftist buddies are. Insane in the membrane.
jergul large member	Thu Mar 06 01:54:39 Ruggy You are a lifeboat supporter right? Well, factually, any interstellar lifeboat strategy represents the greatest genetic bottleneck humanity has ever experienced. Why would you care if Musk's, or Isis', or the CPC's selection of genes escapes? To use the LOTR metaphore, why are you interested in supporting orcs in space?
Seb Member	Thu Mar 06 04:20:57 Rugian: You really shouldn't quote Tolkien to denigrate the concept of Empathy.
Seb Member	Thu Mar 06 04:23:17 Especially the spiritual knots he tied himself in to justify precisely why Orcs were not worthy of empathy, unlike humans. He would certainly not approve of your assertion here that there are whole civilisations of humans collectively beyond divine redemption.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Mar 06 05:03:06 The concept being put forward: Suicidal empathy: And unsustainable form of empathy that ultimately leads to your ruin/demise. Adjacent to concepts like "self-sacrifice" and "martyrdom".
murder Member	Thu Mar 06 05:47:21 "The fundamental weakness of Western civilization is empathy" -- Elon Musk I was 100% sure that was made up nonsense by some left-winger. Even Elon Musk wouldn't be stupid enough to say the quiet part out loud. You can imagine my surprise.
Seb Member	Thu Mar 06 05:57:01 Empathy is the fundamental basis of humans selective advantage. Our ability to form large units of cooperating individuals. The flip side to this is, that in the long term brings down those that try to exploit empathy (or that that don't have it), is spite. I feel bad for individual Americans, but America and her people are about to find a shit load out about spite in coming decades.
murder Member	Thu Mar 06 06:51:11 There are billions of people barely surviving and/or losing that battle ... and Elon Musk is worried about surplus empathy.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Mar 06 10:33:06 Seb You don’t understand evolution. Certainly, empathy it is not *the* fundamental basis. Even as an advantage, like all complex behaviors, it doesn’t exist in a vacuum. Empathy has both adaptive and maladaptive expressions, like violence, which is also an evolutionary adaptation. Suicidal empathy would be, if it isn’t obvious, a maladaptive form of empathy, one lacking reciprocity.
jergul large member	Thu Mar 06 11:23:23 Indeed cutie. Like my example of maladaptive empathy devoting human resources to ensure the genes of perhaps just one or two travel through interstellar space. That would just be suicidal.
jergul large member	Thu Mar 06 11:23:38 <3
Seb Member	Thu Mar 06 11:33:57 Nim: No, you don't understand evolution. What made humans particularly successful is the ability to form very large cooperative groups beyond immediate tribes. The ability to empathise is key to that. "Suicidal empathy would be, if it isn’t obvious, a maladaptive form of empathy, one lacking reciprocity." Firstly, this is a made up concept with no actual phenomenology behind it. Secondly, the behaviour you are describing that balances empathy is Spite. The desire to disproportionately punish wrong doers, even at short term cost. Loads of well established research on this. "Maladaptive empathy" is just bullshit to try and justify xenophobia.
jergul large member	Thu Mar 06 11:55:50 Seb I think the drive to get humanity to devote significant resources into sending Musk's dna off on interstellar colonization to be a classic example of "maladaptive empathy". Why on earth would we ever want to do that once we barebone what interstellar colonization is - the greatest genetic bottleneck humanity has ever seen, but a bottleneck that most definitely will be by design.
jergul large member	Thu Mar 06 11:58:31 Elon is up to 14 offspring now. A significan number by way of IVF. In case anyone thought that was not on his mind as much as space travel and robots are. Musk is trying to create the preconditions he needs for some trust to eventually see all this come together in the future. Frankly, nothing is more important now than defunding Musk.
jergul large member	Thu Mar 06 12:01:35 (breeding principles ignoring CRIPR requires a significant number of daughters' eggs for a stable 87% pure Muskin. Which would be the best choice for interstellar colonization from Elon's perspective).
jergul large member	Thu Mar 06 12:01:54 CRISPR*
Seb Member	Thu Mar 06 12:35:46 Jergul: I would be quite happy to send all of extant instantiations of Musk's genetic material into out of space. My motivation is entirely empathic, as I believe it will certainly benefit many people to do so. However spite motivates me to ensure the material is not necessarily sent in one contiguous package. The gamete producing organs should be separated first.
Seb Member	Thu Mar 06 12:36:28 I mean of course Musk's exact genetic material.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Mar 07 06:13:05 Seb "No, you don't understand evolution." Ok, Mr "The fundamental basis" who does not understand that adaptive and maladaptive behavior can be rooted in the same "fundamental basis" (phenotype) but produce different outcome depending on circumstance. Not getting this would be to fail basic understanding of evolution. "What made humans particularly successful is the ability to form very large cooperative groups beyond immediate tribes. The ability to empathise is key to that." You’ve already walked this back from the to a key. Sure, empathy is important, but so are other factors like intelligence, language, and punishment mechanisms. If we’re going down this road, early human groups were mostly kin based, where cooperation was facilitated by genetic affinity and aligned interests, not just raw empathy. "this is a made up concept" This is vague. All concepts are "made up", that's how language and intellectual progress work. Concepts do not need to be pre-approved by academia to describe real world phenomena. Stockholm syndrome was also a “made up” concept, but it described a real world phenomenon. Ironically Stockholm syndrome is psychologically related to “suicidal empathy”. Beyond that, you assertion is false. There is an entire field of studies into maladaptive forms of empathy from pathological altruism to codependency that would all fall under the colloquial concept “suicidal empathy”. More extreme examples are when someone, for instance, self-immolates, to protest the war in Vietnam or Gaza. We would file all these behaviors under some pathology, it is detrimental to the individual, but they are fundamentally rooted in empathy. You are had waving and deflecting in a knee jerk fashion, in yet another thread, rather than engage with the issues being put forward.
Seb Member	Fri Mar 07 08:08:09 Nim: *Yawn* sounds like you are trying to nit-pick some semantic argument based on what exactly fundamental means. Bored. More interesting things happening. Pat yourself on the head and tell yourself I'm wrong. You'll be happier, I'll be happier. Or you could go and argue with musk that he is overweighting "fundamental" in his sentence.
Seb Member	Fri Mar 07 08:12:11 "All concepts are "made up"" Correct, something you've struggled with in the past where you've tried to insist they just have a fundamental grounding in reality. Cf. gender. However, this is why the sentence continues "with no actual phenomenology". As you seem to be having a particularly hard time with English, let me be more precise. It is a novel and poorly defined concept to describe a phenomenon that does not exist and therefore does not need to be invoked.
Seb Member	Fri Mar 07 08:19:24 "but it described a real world phenomenon" Actually it didn't, as it turned out. It described a psychologist trying to discredit a woman (who he had never met) who was critical of an incredibly botched police operation.
Forwyn Member	Fri Mar 07 10:20:53 An over-abundance of "empathy" leads Western women to see a crowd of cheerleaders at an event running from louds bangs because poles fell and cry, "We need gun control NOW and you're a sociopath if you don't agree". Repeal the 19th, much of the rest will work itself out.
williamthebastard Member	Sun Mar 09 04:57:31 GM Gilbert, Chief Psychologist during the Nuremberg trials: "I was searching for the natuee of evil: Its a lack of empathy. Its the one characteristic that connects all the defendants. A genuine incapacity to feel with their fellow man. Evil, I think, is the absence of empathy"
williamthebastard Member	Sun Mar 09 05:54:03 Personally, I think a better definition of evil is when you commit cruelty to feel better about yourself. E.g. people like Alpha Boi who support cruelty to feel big, to affirm their insecurity about their gender identity or other issues, because empathy is for homisexy faggots, not for real men. When you support cruelty to feel better about yourself, Trump is another example of this, youre taking pleasure in cruelty as opposed to the dead emptiness of Elon.
Seb Member	Sun Mar 09 07:50:11 WtB: pathological Spite, perhaps?
williamthebastard Member	Sun Mar 09 08:05:09 I think power and dominance is one of the main points. Dominating and bullying someone to feel big - which you only need to do if you deep down feel small and weak. E,g, the whole homophobia thing is surely about being so afraid of appearing feminine, which symbolizes weakness to fascists and is such a big thing among fascists, that they want to harm and dominate them. Cruelty toward another person to feel good again. As Umberto Ecco says: Fascism is when machoism discovers politics
williamthebastard Member	Sun Mar 09 08:06:17 Cruelty toward another person to feel good, if ony momentarily, seems to me to be the deepest level of evil.
williamthebastard Member	Sun Mar 09 08:11:11 And machoism is all about weilding power and dominance over others.
williamthebastard Member	Sun Mar 09 08:16:17 But its all a performative show of power, its not about actually being powerful but telling everyone too loudly, hey, look how big and powerful I am! I dominate weak women and homi sexys!
williamthebastard Member	Sun Mar 09 08:25:53 I see Trump is moving prisoners who were born with male bodies but have had operations to gain female physical attributes are being moved to prisons for men where they will immediately become everyones rape object. And every Maga person will feel good about dominating and forcing this cruelty upon these "weaker" specimens.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Mar 12 05:38:39 Seb *Yawn* sounds like you are trying to nit-pick some semantic argument based on what exactly fundamental means. This is rich coming from the guy who is (erroneously) dismissing things based on lack of phenomenology. Anything to not have to defend your position. "Bored. More interesting things happening." Who is forcing you to respond 1, 2, 3 times!? You don't sound bored, you sound flustered. “However, this is why the sentence continues "with no actual phenomenology".” However, “mal-adaptive empathy” is a real thing, it is studied and has phenomenology. Your assertion is simply false. Google caretaker burnout, pathological altruism, do-dependency and more. They all fit under the colloquial term “suicidal empathy”. Suicidal empathy is taking place daily in every case of spousal abuse where the other spouse blames themselves. I’m sorry you have no fucking idea what you are talking about, you were just terribly triggered by something Elon Musk said and have since dug a grave for yourself. “Actually it didn't, as it turned out. “ Actually it does. Stockholm syndrome describes a real psychological phenomena where captives start sympathizing with their captors, it was known before the Norrmalmtorgs robbery and has happened after. Many cases of spousal abuse would fit under the rubric of Stockholm syndrome. For reference see trauma bonding. I feel like half the resistance you are putting up is that retarded little man who once took a PhD in physics and does not understand anything unless presented to him as neat little excitation of fields, in peer reviewed papers. Once again, you were triggered by something someone said on the internet, you talked a lot of shit your cheque did not cover and now we get all the same hand waving, deflecting and avoiding of the topic as you did in the thread about what the west is. Anyway. Lesson for the future, don’t let the things Elon Musk say turn you into a retard. Think.
murder Member	Wed Mar 12 07:22:11 "Suicidal empathy is taking place daily in every case of spousal abuse where the other spouse blames themselves." That's not suicidal empathy. WTF are you talking about? That is the result of violence and intimidation and brainwashing. It is a broken will.
williamthebastard Member	Wed Mar 12 07:33:57 "suicidal empathy" lol, the idiocy... When youre 5 people on a Titanic lifeboat made for 50 and theres someone drowning 2 yards away, you whack their hands with an oar everytime they try to grab on to the boat, else youre suicidally empathetic, in this lunatic's world. You dont have to be clinically psychopathic to adopt psychopathic values; psychopathic influencers and opinion shapers normalize their psychopathic values, so that their followers learn to adopt a psychopath's perspective, as is the case with this moron
Cherub Cow Member	Wed Mar 12 09:40:58 [williamthecoward]: "When youre 5 people on a Titanic lifeboat made for 50 and theres someone drowning 2 yards away, you whack their hands with an oar everytime they try to grab on to the boat, else youre suicidally empathetic, in this lunatic's world." That's such a retarded fucking example. This absolute retard can't help but show his low-IQ issues by failing to create functional analogies or points of reference. In reality, if someone is in open water and is already drowning, they are a danger to anyone around them. This is plainly true by the fact that simply treading water is a basic swim skill. People who cannot tread water and who are drowning in open water are typically panicked and dangerous. The result of simply letting them move to the boat in such a panicked state is that the boat may capsize, they may pull others into the water to save themselves, and they may therefore kill everyone on the boat. williamthecoward is too fucking stupid and ignorant to process this reality. But what this *does* show is that he is indeed so suicidally empathetic that he would get the entire boat killed. Even in his manufactured example he is proving the point: people like him would kill civilization. We simply should not listen to little bitch boys like him. He is evil. He wants to kill Western civilization. He is not equipped to defend the West, would not want to do so anyways, and wants to kill himself and force others to join him on his sick journey. That is the state of leftism.
obaminated Member	Wed Mar 12 10:12:33 Yeah wtb, you are an idiot. Just admit you took a quote, put it out of context and tried to slander someone.
williamthebastard Member	Wed Mar 12 21:16:48 Stockholm syndrome is probably not a real thing, as it happens and several of the hostages have said its all wrong and thats not what happened. In fact, the opposite is more likely; the hostages cleverly made "friend" with the robbers to save their own lives and the robbers fell for it "Stockholm syndrome is a proposed condition or theory that tries to explain why hostages sometimes develop a psychological bond with their captors. Stockholm syndrome has never been included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), the standard tool for diagnosis of psychiatric illnesses and disorders in the United States, mainly due to the lack of a consistent body of academic research and doubts about the legitimacy of the condition.[3] Nils Bejerot, a Swedish criminologist and psychiatrist, invented the term after the Stockholm police asked him for assistance with analyzing the victims' reactions to the 1973 bank robbery and their status as hostages. However, according to accounts by Kristin Enmark, one of the hostages, the police were acting incompetently, with little care for the hostages' safety. This forced the hostages to negotiate for their lives and releases with the robbers on their own. In the process, the hostages saw the robbers behaving more rationally than the police negotiators and subsequently developed a deep distrust towards the latter.[6] Enmark had criticized Bejerot specifically for endangering their lives by behaving aggressively and agitating the captors. She had criticized the police for pointing guns at the convicts while the hostages were in the line of fire, and she had told news outlets that one of the captors tried to protect the hostages from being caught in the crossfire. Olsson later said in an interview that he could have easily killed the hostages in the beginning, but over time it became more difficult, as he developed an emotional bond with them:[9] It was the hostages' fault. They did everything I told them to. If they hadn't, I might not be here now. Why didn't any of them attack me? They made it hard to kill. They made us go on living together day after day, like goats, in that filth. There was nothing to do but get to know each other.
williamthebastard Member	Wed Mar 12 21:20:54 The Swedish wiki page includes more info and is even more dismissive Själva begreppet är mycket ifrågasatt, bland annat har personerna som hölls gisslan just i Norrmalmstorgsdramat i intervjuer sagt att de inte sympatiserade med rånaren.[3] Däremot var de kritiska mot polisens och politikernas agerande och fruktade för att de direkt eller indirekt skulle skadas eller dödas på grund av det. År 2019 publicerade den australiska journalisten Jess Hill sin avhandling See What You Made Me Do[4], där hon beskrev Stockholmssyndromet som "tvivelaktig patologi utan diagnostiska kriterier" och slog fast att den är "full med misogyni och byggd på en lögn". Hon lyfte också att en genomgång av forskningsunderlaget från 2008[5] slog fast att "de flesta [Stockholmssyndroms-]diagnoserna gjorts av media, inte av psykologer eller psykiatriker"
williamthebastard Member	Wed Mar 12 21:24:55 One of the reasons media invented this whole schtick after the robbery was that Clark Olofsson, the leader of the robbers, was well known for being a good looking guy, so the first question the mysoginistic press of the 60s asked the female hostages when they were released was "Are you in love with Clark?" Of course, anything that snmells of mysognism and weak women immediately appeals to Alpha Boi http://www...-kar-i-clark-olofsson/jpgw9n0j
williamthebastard Member	Wed Mar 12 23:14:11 A good rule of thumb is to remember that the facebook expert Alpha Boi is always wrong since his intellectual sources are always the gutter press and social media gossip, and his words are not even worth considering if the subject is about women and weakness "Swedish psychiatrists are now calling the infamous Stockholm Syndrome a "constructed concept" used to explain away the failures of the State. Half a century later, contemporary psychiatrists and experts have since discredited the condition as a fallacy." http://www...it-invented-to-discredit-women
williamthebastard Member	Wed Mar 12 23:28:43 Having read a bit more about it, in fact, its a perfect example of why they bring in negotiators these days to try to calm the situation down. The bank robbers were treating the hostages quite humanely, but each time the cops tried negotiating with them, they acted macho and aggressively toward them, the way Alpha Boi would act if he was negotiating with them. And each time that happened the robbers grew angry and more threatening, so the hostages had to calm them down by trying to be friendly, which worked. Afterwards, the hostages were angry at the cops for being so reckless and aggressively macho. The cops explained this all away by acting like Alpha Boi and saying "Theyre just hysterical women! Of course they fell in love with them!"
williamthebastard Member	Wed Mar 12 23:35:04 Ethan Hawke made a pretty funny black comedy movie about it called Stockholm, which is worth watching for a few laughs, and which also deals with the theme of how the macho cops kept pissing the robbers off and how the hostages had to calm them down each time
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Mar 13 05:22:18 murder You're making an artificial distinction. "Broken will" due to violence, intimidation, and manipulation does not negate the role of maladaptive empathy AKA suicidal empathy. In many abusive relationships, the victim rationalizes their abuser's actions, makes excuse for thm, and even defends them, often at great personal cost. Empathy is the ability to understand and share the feelings of another. When that empathy is directed toward an abuser, it enables a cycle of abuse. You mother fuckers made the mistake of thinking empathy is inherently a good thing, when it is totally dependent on the context. Empathy is an emotion, not a structured ethical frame work! This stuff isn't even controversial, as the research on trauma bonding and pathological altruism shows. If you need peer reviewed permission to think. Jesus Christ guys, these 4 years are going to be loooooong and I fear that at the end of it, you guys will be literal vegetables given how Musk and Trump are nuking your brains.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Mar 13 05:37:24 william the turd brain, the phenomena where captives form emotional bonds with their captors is very real. Even if the entire Stockholm incident was 100% fabricated, like from a movie, it changes nothing. "In fact, the opposite is more likely; the hostages cleverly made "friend" with the robbers to save their own lives and the robbers fell for it" lol @ opposite. This is exactly what trauma bonding is you fucking moron. The brain rationalizes the danger to align with the threat. The instinct to survive and to attach coexists. You can call it what, it is a real phenomena. "Stockholm syndrome has never been included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM)" There you have it, behavior isn't real, unless it is mental disorder and described as a discrete pathology in the DSM. lol :)
williamthebastard Member	Thu Mar 13 06:53:04 When it comes to domestic violence, however, it seems very likely that you have practical hands-on experience and knowledge in that field. Did you say hi to the wife from me, btw, poor woman?
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Mar 13 08:12:22 To remove all ambiguity over how badly WTB knows he got rekt.
williamthebastard Member	Thu Mar 13 08:28:21 Stockholm syndrome and suicidal empathy…Marx was a secret satanist...Marx was a materialist... lol…I do really enjoy watching that dull-witted, red face twitch in rage though ;)
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Mar 14 02:29:44 WTB does not understand metaphors. http://uto...hread=94017&time=1740763395122 I help WTB figure out what Alpha means, ironically tied to this very thread about empathy, which he also does not understand. http://utopiaforums.com/boardthread?id=politics&thread=93731 WTB does not understand words like let alone parse statistical data. http://utopiaforums.com/boardthread?id=politics&thread=92435&time=1703185524612 WTB does not understand the concept "intelligence" and confuses it with domain specific knowledge. http://utopiaforums.com/boardthread?id=politics&thread=91690&time=1686110700339 You are brain damaged.
williamthebastard Member	Fri Mar 14 04:51:06 Anyway, please send this link to your wife. Dont bother checking it, just send it to her, ok? https://kvinnofridslinjen.se/
williamthebastard Member	Fri Mar 14 04:55:31 You do allow her to use the Internet sometimes, right?
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Mar 14 06:16:39 Ask your mum :-)
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